Klarinet Archive - Posting 000351.txt from 2010/09

From: Charles Levine <chardy2@-----.com>
Subj: Re: [kl] Vinegar turns mpc green
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 06:57:05 -0400

Muriatic acid on your mouthpiece? NO NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOOO

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 2:06 AM, Jennifer Jones <helen.jennifer@-----.com>wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Bill Hausmann <bhausmann1@-----.net>
> wrote:
> > Muriatic acid is what we typically use for cleaning mouthpieces and
> flushing
> > brass instruments and cleaning woodwind keys before repadding. You can
> > leave a mouthpiece in it for quite a long time without damage, as happens
> > accidentally from time to time. I don't know the concentration myself.
>
> I don't believe that -Jennifer.
>
> > Bill Hausmann
> >
> > If you have to mic a saxophone, the rest of the band is TOO LOUD!
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Jennifer Jones [mailto:helen.jennifer@-----.com]
> >> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 12:13 AM
> >> To: The Klarinet Mailing List
> >> Subject: [kl] Vinegar turns mpc green
> >>
> >> For the record:
> >>
> >> A ~1 hour soak in a 5% solution of room temperature (~78F) distilled
> >> white vinegar did not remove the white/tan deposits and turned my
> >> Selmer C85 mouthpiece green. In addition to turning the region below
> >> the liquid green, fumes also turned the portion above the liquid line
> >> green. The portion of the submerged facing also became paler. My
> >> mouthpiece now has a vinegar induced "suntan". The cork was not
> >> submerged.
> >>
> >> The region traditionally under the ligature did not turn colors nearly
> >> as much as the rest (incl. the portion above the liquid line). This
> >> and the fact that this mp has not been out in the sun much argues
> >> against a purely sun-induced color change of mouthpieces. The storage
> >> of the mouthpiece with the ligature in place probably restricts oxygen
> >> exposure of the mouthpiece, such that the region under the ligature
> >> does not receive as much exposure to oxygen and hence does not rot and
> >> turn green to the extent that the exposed portions do. Vinegar must
> >> either accelerate rotting of the deteriorated portion, leech materials
> >> out or otherwise change its color.
> >>
> >> The mouthpiece was purchased in late 1998 or early 1999. It now
> >> smells like vinegar and my old greened vulcanized rubber mouthpiece
> >> that it replaced. There was no residual vinegar taste, but there was
> >> a mild smell. I also washed the mp with soap and water after using
> >> vinegar.
> >>
> >> Given that lime-away and CLR are stronger mixtures of acids, it does
> >> not make sense to try them on the mouthpiece, as it will probably turn
> >> greener.
> >>
> >> -Jennifer
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On hard rubber degradation:
> >> incl. continuing sulfur chemistry, oxidative degradation, as well as
> >> catalytic effects of internal and external stresses, heat and light
> >> http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2003/12/000374.txt
> >>
> >> Post by Lelia Loban on a hard rubber clarinet that has relatively
> >> untarnished silver keys:
> >> http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/1998/11/000487.txt
> >> It is generally understood that the sulfur in vulcanized rubber
> >> tarnishes silver. Lelia questions the chemical differences between
> >> hard and soft rubber. She has found that soft rubber cause a lot of
> >> tarnish whereas hard rubber causes little or none, based upon silver
> >> trimming on hard rubber pens and hard rubber sax and clarinet
> >> mouthpieces with silver ligatures that do not have tarnish that
> >> appears to be caused by the rubber. I think it may be a matter of the
> >> extent of cross-linking.
> >>
> >> This post indicates that acids reverse the color change:
> >> http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2004/05/000519.txt
> >> I argue that this is wrong, because my mouthpiece turned green when I
> >> put it in acid. There is further argument that the reaction causing
> >> the color change can be reversed. I argue that the reactions in
> >> rotting rubber cannot be completely reversed because of oxygen induced
> >> breakage of the carbon chains of the rubber molecules.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The searches conducted:
> >> hard rubber sulfur mouthpiece
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> My post on mouthpiece cleaning with ingredients of lime away and CLR:
> >> http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2010/09/000221.txt
> >>
> >> My post on vulcanized rubber deterioration with jumbled thoughts about
> >> the mechanism:
> >> http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2010/09/000114.txt
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