Klarinet Archive - Posting 000018.txt from 2010/09

From: HUGH AITKEN <aitkenlh@-----.net>
Subj: Re: [kl] Cantabile
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 15:54:39 -0400

Greetings all:

Allow me to let you know of my book THE PIECE AS A WHOLE. published by
Praeger, an imprint of GREENWOOD. Wholistic analysis at its best!

Hugh Aitken

On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 5:18 AM, Keith Bowen wrote:

> Hi Michael
>
> Yes indeed, with 20th century sonata form the key did get as far from
> home
> as is possible!
>
> Charles Rosen is very good, I agree. Is the author of the Schenker
> book
> Forte? It is very interesting analysis but heavy going as you say!
>
> Cheers, Keith
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Whight [mailto:michaelwhight@-----.uk] Sent: 31
> August 2010 08:00
> To: The Klarinet Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [kl] Cantabile
>
> Hi Keith
>
> Yes I should have qualified my statement about the second group key
> being
> far from home. This all depends on the period of music. Of course
> Sammartini
> and Wagenseil are unlikely to go to the augmented 4th like Bartok
> would.
> Still the principle is to have two contrasted groups in an exposition,
> the
> harmony starting at home, moving away and coming back again in the
> recap.
> There are no rules as you say. I was just trying to keep it simple.
> Best Wishes
>
> Michael
>
> PS Jennifer. If you want to discover more can I recommend;
>
> The Classical Style. Charles Rosen
> Guidelines in Style Analysis. Jan La Rue
>
> Readings in Schenker Analysis. Can't recall the author off hand and if
> you
> want something interesting but heavy going
>
> The Meaning Of Music. Leonard B Meyer
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 31 Aug 2010, at 00:14, "Keith Bowen" <keith.bowen@-----.com> wrote:
>
>> Hmmm, a 'subject group' is not quite the same as a theme. It could
>> contain
>> several things we would call themes, which would be similar in style
>> but
> not
>> identical.
>>
>> The second subject (group) is not normally in a key far away from
>> home. It
>> is normally in a related key; in the classical period this was fairly
>> strictly the dominant or the relative minor (or major). In the
>> romantic
>> period, third-related keys were increasingly used.
>>
>> Classically, the recapitulation would restate both first and second
> subject
>> groups, or parts of them, in the tonic (the key of the first subject
> group).
>>
>> Of course, this is a general framework rather than a set of rules, so
>> it
> is
>> probably better to speak of 'sonata principle' than 'sonata form'.
> Virtually
>> every significant sonata-form movement breaks some of the rules!
>>
>> For a reference, try 'The Sonata Principle' by Wilfrid Mellers,
>> Travis and
>> Emery.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jennifer Jones [mailto:helen.jennifer@-----.com] Sent: 30
>> August 2010 22:50
>> To: The Klarinet Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [kl] Cantabile
>>
>> Nice. I guess I was looking for a reference, but
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 3:31 AM, Michael Whight
>> <michaelwhight@-----.uk> wrote:
>>> Hi Jennifer
>>>
>>> I guess you can call them whatever you like.
>>
>> No. I like your words. I was just looking for a reference, so I
>> didn't have to pester you. Though it is often nicer talking like
>> this.
>>
>> -Jennifer
>>
>>
>>> The basic principle for a sonata is that there is an exposition, a
>> development and a recapitulation. The material for the >movement is
>> presented in the exposition in 2 sections. The first section or first
> group
>> as I call it is usually in the home key >and the second contrasted
>> group
> in
>> a key far away from home. These contrasts form the basis for the
> discussion
>> or argument >in the development where themes are chopped up,
>> rearranged,
> put
>> in different harmonic contexts and so on. The >recapitulation re
>> evaluates
>> the opening material in the light of these discussions and there may
>> be a
>> coda to close the >movement.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 29 Aug 2010, at 14:00, Jennifer Jones <helen.jennifer@-----.com>
> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Michael,
>>>>
>>>> Continuing a 10 day old conversation:
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 5:06 AM, Michael Whight
>>>> <michaelwhight@-----.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 19 Aug 2010, at 18:22, Jennifer Jones
>>>>> <helen.jennifer@-----.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Michael,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you mean "5th bar of the second group"? On first
>>>>>> reading,
>>>>>> that suggested the clarion D Eb F marked pp five bars after sotto
>>>>>> voce
>>>>>> (marked B). However, I can't figure out how "second group" would
>>>>>> apply to that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes that is the point I mean. I just use the term ' second group'
>>>>> to
>> mean the second contrasted section in a sonata principle >movement.
>> You
> may
>> call it the second subject.
>>>>
>>>> Could these subjects be called themes? Where theme, refers to
>>>> something like different melodies. This seems reasonable because
>>>> the
>>>> first five bars of the sonata appear to be repeated three times
>>>> with
>>>> varying levels of embellishment and expansion. There is a bit
>>>> beginning piu p (separate spot from the other piu p's discussed.)
>>>>
>>>>>> What appears to be a second group is marked piu p in
>>>>>> the reprise beginning with the Ab octave jump (marked I). Since
>>>>>> piu
>>>>>> means more, it seems that piu p would be equivalent to pp. But I
>>>>>> don't know the idiosyncracies of these words or the
>>>>>> idiosyncracies of
>>>>>> Brahms to feel certain.
>>>>>
>>>>> That for me would be the second group material in the
>>>>> recapitulation.
>>>>
>>>> This seems to be technical terminology that I am unfamiliar with.
>>>> Where does "group" come from? Does this indicate a relation
>>>> between
>>>> the theme at the beginning and the theme at the sotto voce. "a
>>>> second
>>>> contrasted section in a sonata principle movement" seems overly
>>>> specific. I might be able to believe "a second contrasted
>>>> section";
>>>> there is a different character between the Allegro amabile and the
>>>> sotto voce
>>>>
>>>> I have heard of inversion "(counterpoint) a variation of a melody
>>>> or
>>>> part in which ascending intervals are replaced by descending
>>>> intervals
>>>> and vice versa" (wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn), but have
>>>> not
>>>> taken any music theory, other than the introductory course which
>>>> tells
>>>> you, for example, what melodic, harmonic and natural keys are. My
>>>> course did not address inversions, which is clearly no what is
>>>> occuring here anyway.
>>>>
>>>>> Piu p is relative to whatever precedes it so can be anything. I
>>>>> use the Henle Urtext for Brahms but I don't recall a piu p marking
>>>>> in
>> the recap there. I'm in Shanghai this week so I can't look it up.
>> >Hope
> this
>> makes it clearer! Incidentally the start of this sonata can be
>> problematic
>> but I was given a good tip once. If you play from >the upbeat to the
>> bar
>> before the recap ( from the D) and go into the main theme you will
> probably
>> want to make a diminuendo to the >start of the theme. This will give
>> you a
>> good start on the F. Imagine those bars at the start of the movement
>> and
> it
>> seems easier.
>>>>
>>>> A bit like the fifth bar to the piece, where the eighth note open G
>>>> of
>>>> the preceding bar is slurred to the high clarion B. Though
>>>> obviously,
>>>> the clarion D to F interval is much smaller than the open G to high
>>>> clarion B.
>>>>
>>>>> Alternatively you can play to the words ' Are you happy with your
>> mouthpiece?' It's a silly trick but can work out ok.
>>>>
>>>> How about 'Shadow was a well loved cat, a clever cat, a cautious
>>>> cat'?
>>>>
>>>> -Jennifer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why is it that I read Shadow with these words in mind:
>>>>
>>>> sarcastic
>>>> scathing
>>>> condescending
>>>> acerbic
>>>> scaredy
>>>> cautious
>>>>
>>>> And yet, find much affection for him?
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