Klarinet Archive - Posting 000447.txt from 2010/08

From: Michael Whight <michaelwhight@-----.uk>
Subj: Re: [kl] Cantabile
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 04:13:41 -0400

Sorry Jennifer that last book may be called Explaining Music by Leonard B Meyer. I can thoroughly recommend it for outlining the subjective and formalist approaches to listening to music. I'm not at home at the moment so I can't check up the title for sure.

Sent from my iPhone

On 31 Aug 2010, at 00:14, "Keith Bowen" <keith.bowen@-----.com> wrote:

> Hmmm, a 'subject group' is not quite the same as a theme. It could contain
> several things we would call themes, which would be similar in style but not
> identical.
>
> The second subject (group) is not normally in a key far away from home. It
> is normally in a related key; in the classical period this was fairly
> strictly the dominant or the relative minor (or major). In the romantic
> period, third-related keys were increasingly used.
>
> Classically, the recapitulation would restate both first and second subject
> groups, or parts of them, in the tonic (the key of the first subject group).
>
> Of course, this is a general framework rather than a set of rules, so it is
> probably better to speak of 'sonata principle' than 'sonata form'. Virtually
> every significant sonata-form movement breaks some of the rules!
>
> For a reference, try 'The Sonata Principle' by Wilfrid Mellers, Travis and
> Emery.
>
> Keith
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jennifer Jones [mailto:helen.jennifer@-----.com]
> Sent: 30 August 2010 22:50
> To: The Klarinet Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [kl] Cantabile
>
> Nice. I guess I was looking for a reference, but
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 3:31 AM, Michael Whight
> <michaelwhight@-----.uk> wrote:
>> Hi Jennifer
>>
>> I guess you can call them whatever you like.
>
> No. I like your words. I was just looking for a reference, so I
> didn't have to pester you. Though it is often nicer talking like
> this.
>
> -Jennifer
>
>
>> The basic principle for a sonata is that there is an exposition, a
> development and a recapitulation. The material for the >movement is
> presented in the exposition in 2 sections. The first section or first group
> as I call it is usually in the home key >and the second contrasted group in
> a key far away from home. These contrasts form the basis for the discussion
> or argument >in the development where themes are chopped up, rearranged, put
> in different harmonic contexts and so on. The >recapitulation re evaluates
> the opening material in the light of these discussions and there may be a
> coda to close the >movement.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 29 Aug 2010, at 14:00, Jennifer Jones <helen.jennifer@-----.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Michael,
>>>
>>> Continuing a 10 day old conversation:
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 5:06 AM, Michael Whight
>>> <michaelwhight@-----.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 19 Aug 2010, at 18:22, Jennifer Jones <helen.jennifer@-----.com>
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Michael,
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you mean "5th bar of the second group"? On first reading,
>>>>> that suggested the clarion D Eb F marked pp five bars after sotto voce
>>>>> (marked B). However, I can't figure out how "second group" would
>>>>> apply to that.
>>>>
>>>> Yes that is the point I mean. I just use the term ' second group' to
> mean the second contrasted section in a sonata principle >movement. You may
> call it the second subject.
>>>
>>> Could these subjects be called themes? Where theme, refers to
>>> something like different melodies. This seems reasonable because the
>>> first five bars of the sonata appear to be repeated three times with
>>> varying levels of embellishment and expansion. There is a bit
>>> beginning piu p (separate spot from the other piu p's discussed.)
>>>
>>>>> What appears to be a second group is marked piu p in
>>>>> the reprise beginning with the Ab octave jump (marked I). Since piu
>>>>> means more, it seems that piu p would be equivalent to pp. But I
>>>>> don't know the idiosyncracies of these words or the idiosyncracies of
>>>>> Brahms to feel certain.
>>>>
>>>> That for me would be the second group material in the recapitulation.
>>>
>>> This seems to be technical terminology that I am unfamiliar with.
>>> Where does "group" come from? Does this indicate a relation between
>>> the theme at the beginning and the theme at the sotto voce. "a second
>>> contrasted section in a sonata principle movement" seems overly
>>> specific. I might be able to believe "a second contrasted section";
>>> there is a different character between the Allegro amabile and the
>>> sotto voce
>>>
>>> I have heard of inversion "(counterpoint) a variation of a melody or
>>> part in which ascending intervals are replaced by descending intervals
>>> and vice versa" (wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn), but have not
>>> taken any music theory, other than the introductory course which tells
>>> you, for example, what melodic, harmonic and natural keys are. My
>>> course did not address inversions, which is clearly no what is
>>> occuring here anyway.
>>>
>>>> Piu p is relative to whatever precedes it so can be anything. I
>>>> use the Henle Urtext for Brahms but I don't recall a piu p marking in
> the recap there. I'm in Shanghai this week so I can't look it up. >Hope this
> makes it clearer! Incidentally the start of this sonata can be problematic
> but I was given a good tip once. If you play from >the upbeat to the bar
> before the recap ( from the D) and go into the main theme you will probably
> want to make a diminuendo to the >start of the theme. This will give you a
> good start on the F. Imagine those bars at the start of the movement and it
> seems easier.
>>>
>>> A bit like the fifth bar to the piece, where the eighth note open G of
>>> the preceding bar is slurred to the high clarion B. Though obviously,
>>> the clarion D to F interval is much smaller than the open G to high
>>> clarion B.
>>>
>>>> Alternatively you can play to the words ' Are you happy with your
> mouthpiece?' It's a silly trick but can work out ok.
>>>
>>> How about 'Shadow was a well loved cat, a clever cat, a cautious cat'?
>>>
>>> -Jennifer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Why is it that I read Shadow with these words in mind:
>>>
>>> sarcastic
>>> scathing
>>> condescending
>>> acerbic
>>> scaredy
>>> cautious
>>>
>>> And yet, find much affection for him?
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