Klarinet Archive - Posting 000444.txt from 2010/08

From: Michael Whight <michaelwhight@-----.uk>
Subj: Re: [kl] Cantabile
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 03:00:16 -0400

Hi Keith

Yes I should have qualified my statement about the second group key being far from home. This all depends on the period of music. Of course Sammartini and Wagenseil are unlikely to go to the augmented 4th like Bartok would. Still the principle is to have two contrasted groups in an exposition, the harmony starting at home, moving away and coming back again in the recap. There are no rules as you say. I was just trying to keep it simple.

Best Wishes

Michael

PS Jennifer. If you want to discover more can I recommend;

The Classical Style. Charles Rosen
Guidelines in Style Analysis. Jan La Rue

Readings in Schenker Analysis. Can't recall the author off hand and if you want something interesting but heavy going

The Meaning Of Music. Leonard B Meyer

Sent from my iPhone

On 31 Aug 2010, at 00:14, "Keith Bowen" <keith.bowen@-----.com> wrote:

> Hmmm, a 'subject group' is not quite the same as a theme. It could contain
> several things we would call themes, which would be similar in style but not
> identical.
>
> The second subject (group) is not normally in a key far away from home. It
> is normally in a related key; in the classical period this was fairly
> strictly the dominant or the relative minor (or major). In the romantic
> period, third-related keys were increasingly used.
>
> Classically, the recapitulation would restate both first and second subject
> groups, or parts of them, in the tonic (the key of the first subject group).
>
> Of course, this is a general framework rather than a set of rules, so it is
> probably better to speak of 'sonata principle' than 'sonata form'. Virtually
> every significant sonata-form movement breaks some of the rules!
>
> For a reference, try 'The Sonata Principle' by Wilfrid Mellers, Travis and
> Emery.
>
> Keith
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jennifer Jones [mailto:helen.jennifer@-----.com]
> Sent: 30 August 2010 22:50
> To: The Klarinet Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [kl] Cantabile
>
> Nice. I guess I was looking for a reference, but
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 3:31 AM, Michael Whight
> <michaelwhight@-----.uk> wrote:
>> Hi Jennifer
>>
>> I guess you can call them whatever you like.
>
> No. I like your words. I was just looking for a reference, so I
> didn't have to pester you. Though it is often nicer talking like
> this.
>
> -Jennifer
>
>
>> The basic principle for a sonata is that there is an exposition, a
> development and a recapitulation. The material for the >movement is
> presented in the exposition in 2 sections. The first section or first group
> as I call it is usually in the home key >and the second contrasted group in
> a key far away from home. These contrasts form the basis for the discussion
> or argument >in the development where themes are chopped up, rearranged, put
> in different harmonic contexts and so on. The >recapitulation re evaluates
> the opening material in the light of these discussions and there may be a
> coda to close the >movement.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 29 Aug 2010, at 14:00, Jennifer Jones <helen.jennifer@-----.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Michael,
>>>
>>> Continuing a 10 day old conversation:
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 5:06 AM, Michael Whight
>>> <michaelwhight@-----.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 19 Aug 2010, at 18:22, Jennifer Jones <helen.jennifer@-----.com>
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Michael,
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you mean "5th bar of the second group"? On first reading,
>>>>> that suggested the clarion D Eb F marked pp five bars after sotto voce
>>>>> (marked B). However, I can't figure out how "second group" would
>>>>> apply to that.
>>>>
>>>> Yes that is the point I mean. I just use the term ' second group' to
> mean the second contrasted section in a sonata principle >movement. You may
> call it the second subject.
>>>
>>> Could these subjects be called themes? Where theme, refers to
>>> something like different melodies. This seems reasonable because the
>>> first five bars of the sonata appear to be repeated three times with
>>> varying levels of embellishment and expansion. There is a bit
>>> beginning piu p (separate spot from the other piu p's discussed.)
>>>
>>>>> What appears to be a second group is marked piu p in
>>>>> the reprise beginning with the Ab octave jump (marked I). Since piu
>>>>> means more, it seems that piu p would be equivalent to pp. But I
>>>>> don't know the idiosyncracies of these words or the idiosyncracies of
>>>>> Brahms to feel certain.
>>>>
>>>> That for me would be the second group material in the recapitulation.
>>>
>>> This seems to be technical terminology that I am unfamiliar with.
>>> Where does "group" come from? Does this indicate a relation between
>>> the theme at the beginning and the theme at the sotto voce. "a second
>>> contrasted section in a sonata principle movement" seems overly
>>> specific. I might be able to believe "a second contrasted section";
>>> there is a different character between the Allegro amabile and the
>>> sotto voce
>>>
>>> I have heard of inversion "(counterpoint) a variation of a melody or
>>> part in which ascending intervals are replaced by descending intervals
>>> and vice versa" (wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn), but have not
>>> taken any music theory, other than the introductory course which tells
>>> you, for example, what melodic, harmonic and natural keys are. My
>>> course did not address inversions, which is clearly no what is
>>> occuring here anyway.
>>>
>>>> Piu p is relative to whatever precedes it so can be anything. I
>>>> use the Henle Urtext for Brahms but I don't recall a piu p marking in
> the recap there. I'm in Shanghai this week so I can't look it up. >Hope this
> makes it clearer! Incidentally the start of this sonata can be problematic
> but I was given a good tip once. If you play from >the upbeat to the bar
> before the recap ( from the D) and go into the main theme you will probably
> want to make a diminuendo to the >start of the theme. This will give you a
> good start on the F. Imagine those bars at the start of the movement and it
> seems easier.
>>>
>>> A bit like the fifth bar to the piece, where the eighth note open G of
>>> the preceding bar is slurred to the high clarion B. Though obviously,
>>> the clarion D to F interval is much smaller than the open G to high
>>> clarion B.
>>>
>>>> Alternatively you can play to the words ' Are you happy with your
> mouthpiece?' It's a silly trick but can work out ok.
>>>
>>> How about 'Shadow was a well loved cat, a clever cat, a cautious cat'?
>>>
>>> -Jennifer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Why is it that I read Shadow with these words in mind:
>>>
>>> sarcastic
>>> scathing
>>> condescending
>>> acerbic
>>> scaredy
>>> cautious
>>>
>>> And yet, find much affection for him?
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