Klarinet Archive - Posting 000363.txt from 2010/08

From: Jennifer Jones <helen.jennifer@-----.com>
Subj: Re: [kl] Spit leakage on mouthpiece
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 01:45:25 -0400

Another thing that applies to reed-tongue contact that was not
included in my previous email is different types of tonguing. I will
try to be more detailed with how I make the normal attack that I
described in the other post; where my tongue is at "attention" and I
tap the tongue to the reed. And then I will describe my explosive
attack.

For the normal attack, when my tongue is at "attention", it is pulled
into the back of the throat with the top surface forming something
like an S-shaped curve; the tip low, under the reed and the middle
bunched aligning with the reed. At any rate, it is firm and does not
wrap around the reed. It only touches the reed and not even the whole
width.

I think this tongue shape comes of moving my tongue a bit back when I
put the mouthpiece in my mouth.

If I want to make an explosive attack, I will press my tongue harder
against the reed. This results in a larger area of tongue in contact
with the reed, but I am pretty sure it is not so much that it contacts
the whole width of the reed or wraps around the reed. The pressure
builds up in the cavity of my mouth and I get the explosive attack
when I remove my tongue. This is probably closer to the tongue
thrusting that is mentioned in the first couple posts cited below.
The important thing here is that I have cleared most of the saliva out
of my mouth.

In either case, I don't have liquid bubbling from the sides of my
mouthpiece, between the reed and the rails.

In the event that I am salivating excessively, I work harder to clear
my mouth of saliva before I play. In addition, the act of clearing
the saliva from my mouth probably exercises muscles and helps with
that energy balancing I mentioned before (exercise uses sugar etc. in
the blood that would otherwise go towards saliva production).

To be thorough, I could test these thoughts by checking whether I can
get liquid bubbling out the sides of the mouthpiece.

-Jennifer

References (hodgepodge of relevant portions of several posts):

> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Richard D Bush
> <rbushidioglot@-----.net> wrote:
>> Dear Jennifer,
>>
>> Have you had any time to make an evaluation of your tongue stroke? Are y=
ou
>> thrusting your tongue forward and backward in your mouth, and does the t=
ip
>> of your tongue end up being flat across the tip end of the reed? I could=
n't
>> tell if this is a possible cause of your excess moisture without hearing=
you
>> play. Moisture in a clarinet is BOTH the condensation of the air after it
>> has been in your lungs and does become more moist and also the possibili=
ty
>> of saliva being blown into your clarinet from the top of your tongue if =
you
>> are tongue thrusting and allowing the tip of the tongue to make a flat
>> platform for all saliva on the tongue to shoot into the mouthpiece when
>> tonguing.

[snip]

On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Richard D Bush
<rbushidioglot@-----.net> wrote:
> I find that the way one's tongue touches the reed has a lot to do with
> whether spit gets blown into the instrument. If a person lets their
> tongue go flat, and if they thrust it forward as a tongue stroke,
> there is a high likelyhood that moisture on the top of the tongue will
> blow forward and enter the mouthpiece.
>
[snip]
>
> If the whole tongue is being thrust forwards and then backwards in the
> mouth when tonguing, the speed of the air will be in a state of flux.
> Also, the shape of the wind-way will change the tone color. Thirdly,
> these changes also change the direction of the air before it reaches
> the mouthpiece. All of these changing conditions will affect the
> speaking, pitch and tone color. All of the above need to be
> consistent and under the control of the player.

On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Jennifer Jones
<helen.jennifer@-----.com> wrote:
> Dear Richard,
>
> I can't say that I thrust my tongue anywhere. =A0My tongue mostly lies
> in the mouth, perhaps slightly tensed as if at "attention" and I tap
> it to the reed as necessary. =A0Though I can do a sort of licking of the
> reed (moving tongue forward then backward), like I think you describe.
> =A0This works, but I don't think that is my natural way of tonguing.
> Mostly it is the middle of my tongue that contacts the tip of the
> reed. =A0I don't like the feel of a large portion of the reed against my
> tongue when it is vibrating... (Princess and the pea?) =A0When I try
> varying the position of my tongue while tonguing, I find that the
> place that is least sensitive is about an inch from the tip. =A0However,
> dad says that I have a small mouth and that my tongue is rather big
> for it. =A0I do have crowded bottom teeth, to go with that.
>
> I am pretty sure that most of my moisture is condensation. =A0I say
> this, because I do not have liquid bubbling from the edges of my reed,
> I mostly get liquid in the tone holes and dripping out the bottom of
> the horn. =A0The other reason for this is that the salivary glands that
> I am aware of are below the tongue and on the cheeks, (e.g. right by
> the teeth). =A0I don't think there are any salivary glands on the top of
> the tongue itself. =A0However, I do occasionally get mucous draining
> from my nasal passages (post nasal drip sort of stuff), like when you
> sniff up a bunch of snot into your throat to hock a loogie, or just
> get it out of the way. =A0That can accumulate on the tongue, but it is
> so much thicker than saliva and the rate of air flow in the cavity of
> the mouth is much lower than the rate of air flow between the reed and
> the mouthpiece that, unless there is a lot of saliva or mucous and it
> is near the reed, air doesn't move much fluid from the throat to the
> reed.
>
> I have seen people that have excess salivation, in the context of
> recorder groups I've been in. =A0Having a foreign thing in the mouth
> probably causes excess salivation; something that brass and flute
> players wouldn't encounter, but could appear in the case of oboe,
> bassoon, clarinet, saxophone, taragato etc. players. =A0I wonder if this
> is a reason that the literature indicates that clarinets were
> developed after the double reeds. =A0The double reed is smaller and
> relatively less invasive. =A0Please forgive the expression, but I think
> of this in terms of pornographic films and deep throating which in
> many cases appears to stimulate secretion of mucous. =A0I wouldn't be
> surprised to see excess salivation in anyone who is not in the habit
> of putting big things in their mouth.
>
> Excess salivation while playing may be a problem that I solved when I
> was a kid. =A0I do find that I will sometimes drool on my pillow when I
> sleep. =A0The solution I found to that is to try to clear the mouth of
> as much saliva as possible, swallow it, and with the lips pressed
> together, create a vacuum (of sorts) in the mouth. =A0The =A0vacuum
> doesn't last, but I think the action of pressing the lips together
> exercises them and thereby improves muscle tone to help one keep the
> mouth closed when relaxed. =A0So, I probably unconsciously clear saliva
> from my mouth before I begin playing.
>
> My mouthpiece also does not touch much of the inside of my mouth. =A0The
> only parts in contact with the mouthpiece are lips, teeth, (depending
> upon whether I'm fussing with double lip embouchure) and tongue (when
> tonguing). =A0Probably minimizing contact between the mouthpiece and the
> inside of the mouth reduces salivation as well.
>
> Those were very helpful questions. =A0I am glad I had a chance to think
> about them.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jennifer Jones

On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:05 AM, I (Jennifer Jones) wrote in revised form:
I was having the worst time with my G# key today. Inspired by the
mention of Brahms second sonata, I picked up the sonata and the
clarinet again after a several month hiatus in playing. Condensation
is terrible for me. I have to blow it out. Of course blowing sends
the liquid right back into the instrument, but does serve a temporary
fix. Are there other ways keep the G# key (LH pinky) clear?

Regarding the issue of excess salivation:
I think I might salivate more when I feel intimidated or aren't
getting enough exercise. The same goes with eyes and nose; they water
and run more if I've been in bed too long reading or working on the
laptop etc.

I can't say for sure, but I suspect that when I'm laying down or not
getting enough exercise, it is a matter of energy distribution in the
body. When lying down, energy doesn't go towards keeping muscles
tensed to maintain posture, so some of that unused sugar etc. in the
blood goes toward secretions to wash away microbes that may be
building up (rolling stone gathers no moss; a moving person sloughs of
microbes as they multiply; that way they don't build up).

Obviously, when you are playing you are usually sitting up, and this
energy distribution would not be as big a factor.

Maybe some lurking physician has other ideas about salivation issues.

-Jennifer
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