Klarinet Archive - Posting 000109.txt from 2010/02

From: THOMAS P <Tski1128@-----.com>
Subj: Re: [kl] Clarinet EQ
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 08:48:35 -0500

Guys, I don't care if you play outside or in a sound booth(which I =
have), when you're playing you are not hear what other people are =
hearing. For instance I play double lip all the time, when I record =
myself, playing single lip and double it sounds VERY different to me. =
When I listen to the recordings the difference is MINIMAL, and I'm using =
a patch for my teeth so plastic to bone vibration is minimized. So =
I've learned that one of the biggest differences between single and =
double lip is: how one perceives their own sound. So it depends where =
you sit in the process, are you the generator or are you the listener? =
When you listen to playback you're always a listener not the generator. =20=

So I've come to a conclusion: We hear more by Feel than we do by actual =
sound. I've done the mouthpiece thing, you know play two or more =
mouthpieces set it up and play them for other players. When I've tried =
them, they might have felt radically different, but good players had =
trouble hearing any difference between them. That's the same thing =
I've found on playback. What feels like night and day might sound like =
4:00 and 4:20. I know alot of people might read that and feel it's =
wrong. And there are times where the difference between 4pm and 4:15 =
means alot. =20

I'd love to hear from other clarinetist who've spent some time in front =
of the mics. Are your experiences similar or radically different.

Tom Puwalski

=20
On Feb 21, 2010, at 3:09 AM, David Myer wrote:

> I also agree with Mike. This past week when I was looking for and =
trying out new mouthpieces at Mike's shop, he told me to try it outside. =
Boy, you can hear a big difference. Those rooms can play a lot of =
tricks on you. Do give it a shot. This way, you are hearing the =
mouthpiece and not the room.
>=20
> -David=20
> On Feb 21, 2010, at 12:01 AM, Diego Casadei wrote:
>=20
>> Dear Mike,
>>=20
>> your suggestion looks exactly the opposite of what I do, which is to =
play near a corner of a room, to get all sound reflected immediately =
back and be able to overcome the overall reverberation from the room. I =
will try as soon as the weather will allow me to do so :-)
>>=20
>> Anyway, I'm sorry but there is no way for a player to listen to her =
own real sound. The reason is that she always gets a significant =
contribution from the sound conducted through the skull, which is =
impossible to get if you don't play the instrument by yourself (or if =
you are a mic).
>>=20
>> Best regards,
>> Diego
>>=20
>>=20
>> Mike Vaccaro wrote:
>>> Just my 2c. If you really want to get an idea of the real sound you =
are
>>> getting play outside. Every room has a different sound (as do
>>> microphones and amps, etc etc.). Take the horn outside on a day that =
is
>>> 72 degrees and play. Don't forget too that temperature enters into =
the
>>> equation. Minimize the variables that effect the tone. Out doors is =
a
>>> pretty good indicator of your dry un-altered sound
>>>=20
>>> Mike Vaccaro
>>> www.MikeVaccaro.Com
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> This e-mail may contain information that is privileged or =
confidential.
>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the e-mail and =
any
>>> attachments and notify us immediately.
>>>=20
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "THOMAS P" <Tski1128@-----.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 6:39 PM
>>> To: <klarinet@-----.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [kl] Clarinet EQ
>>>=20
>>>> Thanks Ben, I was going to write you privately with my questions =
but I
>>>> thought if you responded via the list some other clarinetist would
>>>> gain some insight. I've never had too much trouble when I record =
other
>>>> musicians, bucause I can hear what they are sounding like as I =
place
>>>> mics and mess with EQ and such. But the problem lies trying to =
figure
>>>> out exactly "what do I sound like?" That age old question what is
>>>> "real" and what is electronic. That's the point I would like to =
make
>>>> to the list. No who you hear on a recording you're really not =
hearing
>>>> "real" you're hearing an approximation of real.
>>>>=20
>>>> Many on this list have expressed loving the sound of Artie Shaw on
>>>> Begin the Begine, Most likely RCA ribbon mics through all kind of =
Tube
>>>> electronics and recorded to a type of vinyl that was most likely
>>>> different that was available later. Did that "make" his tone? =
Probably
>>>> not, it most likely took a "warm" timbre and enhanced the warmth. A
>>>> recording of a great performance is not the real thing it's a
>>>> recording of the real thing, It may or may not sound better than =
the
>>>> actual performance.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I've been recording with with Old shure Ribbons 300s ( that have =
been
>>>> rehabed by steve sank, these sounded much better than my AEA =
ribbons)
>>>> through an AEA ribbon pre into an Apogee interface into mac pro and
>>>> logic. I hadn't messed with 10-12k range and I've managed get the
>>>> sound on tape that I hope is what I sound like in real life. My =
next
>>>> thing is to try to get this sound with my video camera.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks for the help. Tom Puwalski
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 18, 2010, at 4:45 PM, Benjamin Maas wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> Been meaning to respond here, but life and work has kept me =
busy...
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The answer to all of these questions are "it depends."
>>>>>=20
>>>>> There are no set EQs that will work for a clarinet- the sound you
>>>>> have on
>>>>> tape (figuratively speaking) is a result of a combination of =
factors
>>>>> that
>>>>> change on every recording made. These include, the mic position, =
the
>>>>> microphone itself, the preamp and last but certainly not least, =
the
>>>>> room it
>>>>> is being played in (never mind the player issues such as reeds). =
Even
>>>>> with
>>>>> the same mic in the same room through the same preamp, you'll find
>>>>> different
>>>>> sounds. Why? The positioning is never exact and the sound of a =
room can
>>>>> change with the relative humidy.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> That being said, here's a couple guidelines that may help you get
>>>>> started.
>>>>> A wide boost in the range of lets say 200 Hz to 350Hz will give a =
bit
>>>>> warmer
>>>>> sound. A cut in the 3KHz to 6KHz range will take off some of the
>>>>> edge- but
>>>>> be careful, too much of a cut there will make the sound rather =
dead and
>>>>> lifeless. A shelf in the 10-12 KHz range will add "air" to the =
sound and
>>>>> open things up a bit without making it too bright sounding. A =
narrow
>>>>> cut in
>>>>> the range of 400-550 Hz will help tame a "boxy" sound. A cut in =
the
>>>>> range
>>>>> of perhaps 800Hz to 1.5 KHz will help tame a nasal sound.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Beyond that, as I said, ever situation is different. What I =
usually
>>>>> recommend to those trying to learn to EQ is to do drastic moves.
>>>>> Raise or
>>>>> lower a frequency by 15 or 20 dB. Go extreme and you'll hear very
>>>>> clearly
>>>>> what you're working with. As you sweep the frequency, you'll begin =
to
>>>>> notice magic spots for given sounds that will really help you out. =
At
>>>>> that
>>>>> point, move the gain of the cut to only a couple dB and you should =
be in
>>>>> pretty good shape.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> As for ribbons vs. condensers... Apples and oranges. Both can be
>>>>> good, but
>>>>> both have massively different sounds. A ribbon will generally be a
>>>>> bit more
>>>>> mellow and take to EQ better. But, like all mics, there are =
quality ones
>>>>> and crappy ones. I recommend highly Royer, AEA and Coles. I also
>>>>> recommend
>>>>> Beyer, but not as much as the previously mentioned mics. I do not
>>>>> recommend
>>>>> the Chinese-made ribbons out there that appear under a slew of =
different
>>>>> names. Some have been modded out by replacing the ribbons,
>>>>> transformers and
>>>>> such and they can be ok. The stock ones are really not great, =
though,
>>>>> IMO.
>>>>> A good ribbon will be in the same price range as a good condenser. =
For
>>>>> condensers, I recommend Schoeps, Sennheiser MKH8000 series or =
MKH40,
>>>>> some of
>>>>> the vintage Neumann and AKG mics, some Microtech Gefell, and =
such...
>>>>> There
>>>>> are plenty of good mics depending on what sort of sound you're
>>>>> looking for,
>>>>> but rarely do I find mics that I really love under about $1000 =
new.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --Ben
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Benjamin Maas
>>>>> Fifth Circle Audio
>>>>> Long Beach, CA
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Tom Puwalski [mailto:tski1128@-----.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 11:22 AM
>>>>>> To: klarinet@-----.org
>>>>>> Subject: [kl] Clarinet EQ
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Does anyone have any eq ideas on what seems to be "normal" for =
close
>>>>>> miced clarinet? Have you noticed diffences between ribbon and
>>>>>> condensor mics?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Thanks Tom Puwalski
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>>=20
>> Diego Casadei, PhD.
>> Physics Department, CERN
>> New York University bld. 32, S-A19
>> 4 Washington Place 1211 Geneve 23
>> New York, NY 10003 Mailbox J28310
>> USA Switzerland
>> office: +1-212-998-7675 office: +41-22-767-6809
>> mobile: +39-347-1460488 mobile: +41-76-213-5376
>> http://cern.ch/casadei/ Diego.Casadei@-----.ch
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>=20
>=20
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