Klarinet Archive - Posting 000356.txt from 2009/02

From: clarni bass <clarnibass@-----.com>
Subj: RE: [kl] Cork Repair & Wax
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 02:22:54 -0500

To clarify, I wasn attacking the idea, but only raising questions that IMO are worth raising for every tyoe of repair, the same as in music really!

>> I have to ask if he has even seen wax
>> used on corks based upon his response

Yes, and it was done by a very respected American repairer. Nothing about it was better than a good and fitting cork with good cork grease. But this doesn't change the fact that it's important to ask questions about it.

>> First, I am not trying to suggest that this is a
>> permanent method for cork repair. In fact, I said
>> this was another temporary fix.

I didn't reply thinking you meant it was permanent. But for a temporary repair, there are simpler options, which would probably last as long, probably longer, because they don't depend on the old cork compressing again (after heated to expand). So why bother specifically with this...?

>> However, I do know some custom makers that
>> use this even on new corks as I have stated.

I'm not questioning that you do. But saying this seperates the "custom" makers from other makers. I didn't want a more naive reader to think that if a "custom" maker does something, it's AUTOMATICALLY good or better. It's not. I've seen design and build flaws on clarinets by more than one "custom" maker.

>> I agree in principal with this statement, but I think it is flawed
>> because it is so vague. If we do not take advice from a repair
>> person that is accepted in our community as an expert just because
>> he is considered an expert (reputation), then where do you get the
>> second part about analyzing and trying the ideas yourself based upon
>> facts and logic?

Actually my statement wasn't vague and instead was very specific. In your reply you misinterpreted what I wrote. Here is what I said: "It is not a good idea to follow someone's advice JUST because of their name/reputation. It is ALWAYS better to analyze and try the IDEAS yourself based on facts, logic, etc."

In your reply you ignored the very critical word in the sentence: "JUST"
I never said anything about not finding ideas from others, experts or not. Obviously that is very good! I never said anything about "not take advice from a repair person" (your words).

Have you considered everything in my post when you tried/suggested this method? Have the "custom" makers you mentioned considered all that? If not, maybe now you/they can. If someone can have answers, based on analyzing, to show WHY it works good, then I'm interested to hear them, because again, I was asking questions, not judging. But to just say it works or give "names" to claim something is a good idea is not a real answer.

On a repair only forum there are suggestions for methods, tools, ideas, all the time. Some people will start analyzing them and many times there are all sorts of conclusions about them. This is important to do for someone who is interested in actually understand all the details of a method, which will only improve them.

>> I don't think you can simply pull these facts and logic out
>> of thin air. They have to come from somewhere. I guess the
>> argument is from where, and my answer is from a source you
>> trust. Whether that is a printed repair manual or a repair
>> person that you have worked with first hand and trust.

The analyzing is not from thin air, is by thinking. You can't always think about all the details yourself, so it's definitely good when there are more people or sources. And definitely as you suggested it's good to find all the information you, whether it's from a book or from a person. Nothing again that, just the opposite, that is great! But OTOH I found information and methods from these sources that I decided to do differently because I found problems in the original ideas. If I just followed the originals, without raising all the questions, same as in this case, I would never find the better options.

>> Granted, we are talking about cork repair here, but what if
>> the subject was undercutting tone holes. Do we not believe
>> anything ever written on this subject until we first try it
>> ourselves by undercutting the tones holes on our own clarinet
>> to prove if it works or not?

You can believe (or not) to whatever you want, and so does anyone else. But (continue to) misinterpret me and imply I suggested not to believe anything!

>> It also does not grip because you will still use a small amount
>> of cork grease over the wax. Very small. Sorry if this was not clear.

Which puts it more into the "why bother" category. If you need to use cork grease anyway, where's the advantage? For a temporary fix, as I mentioend there are much simpler ways for the average musician.

>> Yes, a damp rag will remove most of the cork grease from
>> your cork, assuming it is not hopelessly ruined by the
>> overuse of cork grease in the first place. In which case
>> you need a new cork anyway.

So this adds another situation where the method with parafin wax doesn't help. If someone takes care of their cork (doesn't leave the joints/barrel/bell assembled for too long without letting the cork decompress) and uses GOOD cork grease (only very little is needed, and only occasionally), then the cork would last many years. When it finally needs to be replaced, you can use a much simpler temporary fix until you have it replaced.

>> Lastly, Clarni Bass seems to assume that clarinet makers
>> only use a single type of cork. On this you are mistaken.

Come on... stop misinterpreting me..... please? :-)

I don't assume that, and not anywhere in my post I said (or implied) that I do. But what do you mean by "type"? Do you actually mean quality? I've seen anything from the best to the worst quality cork on many different clarinets and from cork sheet. Or do you mean the type of filling the cork sheet has (basically similar to quality)?
Or do you mean types of synthetic corks? I've seen many different ones of those too. Although these are great for SOME uses, IME they are not better than natural cork.

Please notice that I never was personal to you in my post and only referring to the IDEA that you wrote. You are now assuming completely wrong personal things and I have no idea why.

>> The corks on the adjustment keys.....

If you are getting into the subject of corks on keys, etc. then any repairer (or clarinet maker) who follow modern developments will know there are many different materials to use on a clarinet. To continue:

>> We are, of course, talking about organic
>> cork here from trees, not synthetic.

I hope you are not implying natural cork is always better than non-natural corks for key (because it is not). For some locations, some materials are CONSIDERABLY better than natural cork, even the best natural cork. your explaination of just different corks is pretty limited comparing with what is actually available and what repairers use. There so many types of synthetic and composite corks which are also completely different from each other (so just saying "synthetic cork" essentially means very little).

>> Sadly, the commercial cork that you buy at a retail outlet
>> is some of the worst quality cork you can get...... When I
>> asked what the source was, they simply told me it was in
>> Portugal, where most all quality cork is harvested.

I don't know what you mean by "retail outlet". I know or two suppliers in Portugal (maybe there are more) and at least most cork sold by instrument repair suppliers is from those Portugese suppliers.

Anyway, the purpose of my post was to raise questions to the method you mentioned, and I hope I managed to make you or anyone consider more details with this or even any other method you or anyone will consider using in the future :-)

--- On Wed, 2/18/09, Tom.Henson@-----.com> wrote:

> From: Tom.Henson@-----.com>
> Subject: RE: [kl] Cork Repair & Wax
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 5:35 AM
> Hello all,
>
> I have been out sick for a few days and thus could not
> respond earlier,
> but I see that Clarni Bass has his own opinion about my
> suggestion. One
> that he is certainly entitled to have, but I have to ask if
> he has even
> seen wax used on corks based upon his response.
>
> I am not claiming to be an expert repair person, but have
> discussed the
> use of wax on corks with those that I feel are experts. I
> do have more
> repair experience probably than the average clarinet person
> just by
> having done so much work on my own clarinets over the years
> and picking
> the brains of those repair persons whom I trust. However, I
> offered this
> suggestion as one that had not been discussed regarding a
> temporary way
> to tighten up a loose fit between a tenon cork and the
> socket.
>
> Based upon the statements that Clarni Bass has made, I find
> that I can
> not agree with his conclusions and feel I should say why.
>
> First, I am not trying to suggest that this is a permanent
> method for
> cork repair. In fact, I said this was another temporary
> fix. Yes, any
> cork that is worn down will go back to that same state no
> matter what
> you do until such time as you replace it with new cork.
> However, I do
> know some custom makers that use this even on new corks as
> I have
> stated.
>
> Definition of custom maker: One who makes an instrument to
> order based
> upon the desire of the individual ordering it. Thus they
> make the
> clarinet custom to that order or individual. The instrument
> is generally
> not even made until such customer orders it from the maker.
> Example,
> adding key extensions, plating options other than silver,
> types and
> lengths of barrels, type of wood used to make the clarinet,
> custom hand
> made cases, etc, etc.. This would definitely not include
> the big 3,
> Buffet, Selmer, and Leblanc (except Leblanc by Backun
> directly from
> him).
>
> Custom makers: Backun, Stephen Fox, Wurlitzer, Leitner
> & Kraus, Martin,
> Foag, Schwenk & Seggelke, Eaton, Howarth, Rossi, Gerold
> Klarinetten,
> Belcanta, Clarissono, Hammerschmidt (several), Meinert,
> Stephan
> Leitzinger, Meinel, Mollenhaurer, Harald Huyng, Johanna
> Kronthaler,
> Wolfgang Dietz, and probably many others you have never
> heard of. And
> yes, all of these make either Boehm, Reform Boehm, or
> Oehler system
> clarinets, or all of the above.
>
> Quoting Clarni Bass's own statement:
>
> "It is not a good idea to follow someone's advice
> JUST because of their
> name/reputation. It is ALWAYS better to analyze and try the
> IDEAS
> yourself based on facts, logice, etc. "
>
> I agree in principal with this statement, but I think it is
> flawed
> because it is so vague. If we do not take advice from a
> repair person
> that is accepted in our community as an expert just because
> he is
> considered an expert (reputation), then where do you get
> the second part
> about analyzing and trying the ideas yourself based upon
> facts and
> logic?
>
> Where do those facts and logic come from in the first place
> if they do
> not come from those before you that have tried this and
> learned what is
> or is not possible to do (safely)? I don't think you
> can simply pull
> these facts and logic out of thin air. They have to come
> from somewhere.
> I guess the argument is from where, and my answer is from a
> source you
> trust. Whether that is a printed repair manual or a repair
> person that
> you have worked with first hand and trust.
>
> Granted, we are talking about cork repair here, but what if
> the subject
> was undercutting tone holes. Do we not believe anything
> ever written on
> this subject until we first try it ourselves by
> undercutting the tones
> holes on our own clarinet to prove if it works or not? Good
> luck,
> because you will most likely need a new clarinet after you
> are through
> trying and analyzing. I hope that this is not what Clarni
> Bass meant
> when he said to analyze and try the ideas yourself before
> accepting
> them.
>
> Folks, if you don't think my suggestion is worth trying
> when you have a
> loose cork, then just hit the delete button. You will not
> hurt my
> feelings, really. But I have to give credence to using wax
> on corks when
> people like Morrie Backun, with whom I have discussed this
> topic in
> person, along with Wurlitzer and Leitner & Kraus
> (custom makers from
> Germany). With these persons and firms I have first hand
> knowledge that
> they use wax on new corks when doing an overhaul or making
> new
> clarinets. These are not the type of repair persons who
> would put
> something on a cork just to make it shine. There is a very
> valid reason
> they do this and I have tried to explain why.
>
> Based upon my own trying and analyzing, I can also say;
>
> Yes, paraffin wax (when melted and rubbed into the cork)
> does adhere to
> a clean cork, but it does not last forever. You need to
> re-wax as it
> wears off. The cleaner the cork, the better it adheres.
> No, it does not grip the wood. Paraffin wax is used by many
> industries
> as a low pressure seal and lubricant. Hold a bar of
> paraffin wax in your
> hand and you will understand how slippery it is. It also
> does not grip
> because you will still use a small amount of cork grease
> over the wax.
> Very small. Sorry if this was not clear.
> Yes, a damp rag will remove most of the cork grease from
> your cork,
> assuming it is not hopelessly ruined by the overuse of cork
> grease in
> the first place. In which case you need a new cork anyway.
>
> Lastly, Clarni Bass seems to assume that clarinet makers
> only use a
> single type of cork. On this you are mistaken. Yes, cork is
> cork, sort
> of. But there are actually different grades of cork with
> different
> density (hardness), resilience (springiness) and porosity.
> In discussing
> this topic with Wurlitzer, I found out that they use as
> many as five or
> six different grades of cork on a single clarinet. The cork
> on the
> tenons, while the thickest cut, has the most porosity so
> that it will
> hold the grease well. It even has natural holes in the
> cork, selected
> just for this purpose. The corks on the adjustment keys are
> sliced very
> thin and thus must be harder and with no holes that would
> weaken them
> over time. They then use different grades of cork depending
> on the
> specific key and also depending on if the cork is attached
> below the key
> or above it. Bumper corks are another type as well. We are,
> of course,
> talking about organic cork here from trees, not synthetic.
>
> Sadly, the commercial cork that you buy at a retail outlet
> is some of
> the worst quality cork you can get. I was told by one
> repair tech that
> they have a source for cork that allows them to inspect the
> quality and
> return any that is not up to their standards. It is pretty
> amazing just
> how long a high quality cork will last, but don't
> expect to get it from
> anyone else other than a cork distributor or maker and are
> willing to
> buy in larger quantity than the average home repair person
> can buy. When
> I asked what the source was, they simply told me it was in
> Portugal,
> where most all quality cork is harvested.
>
> Tom Henson
>
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