Klarinet Archive - Posting 000101.txt from 2008/11

From: Alexander Brash <brash@-----.edu>
Subj: Re: [kl] After Drucker
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:19:45 -0500


On Nov 9, 2008, at 8:44 PM, thomaswinds wrote:

>>>> One major reason orchestras do not reaudition players every 15
>> years is because if they did, no player would ever be able to make
>> money playing for a living. All the orchestras would do is hire
>> kids and pay them base salary, they would pretty much all be
>> temps. The AFM recognizes this, and thank Heaven it's still one
>> of the strongest unions in the country.
>
> False. Are you suggesting that you need greater than 15 years at one
> of those organizations to start making decent pay? Starting at NYPhil
> was over a hundred last I checked?<<
>
> False? Your proof, sir?
>
> Yeah, I would say 15 years is about right. You need to look at
> salary scales. $100K in NYC, while good for a player, would not go
> to someone just off the boat - and for someone with experience, is
> really not that great of a salary. Can't live in town on that...

Are you insane? Pardon my French. I make 80, and I live in the city
*very* comfortably. My proof was simple - the starting salary in
those orchestras, times 15 years, gives you plenty of time to make a
handsome savings.

>
>> Don't believe me? It's already happened, it's what schools do now.
>> Teachers unions are getting weaker and weaker. New grads have all
>> the advantages, and older, more experienced teachers aren't hired
>> because the schools would have to pay them more. It's taking
>> longer to get tenure, too.
>
> I don't think this is actually true - I need to see some report on
> this, anecdotal evidence is worthless. <<
>
> Yes, it is true. All you will EVER get is anecdotal evidence,
> that's a big Duh. You won't see reports on this, what school
> district do you know that would leave itself WIDE open to age
> discrimination suits? Although I must say that our **school
> board** has told the administrators to hire new grads over
> experienced teachers. THAT is in the minutes of several board
> meetings. Whether or not the district took their advice is, of
> course, relative, and easy enough for them to excuse.
>
>>> In my experience, for example, as a public school student,
>>> teachers unions were a travesty of life, who kept around
>>> terrible old teachers who actively hurt student learning, and
>>> prevented superior teachers from being hired.<<
>
> Your experience as a student was that of someone immature, much
> less not that of someone who was an employee of a district, or
> trained in education of any sort.
>
>>> This is actually true in my experience, I'm just not sure it's a bad
> thing.<<
>
> Of course it's bad. What GOOD teacher do you know that would work
> for no benefits, part time? What earthly reason would a GOOD
> teacher have to invest themselves in any such university, much less
> one that would disrespect its own profession, all for the sake of
> business?
>
>>> Is your argument seriously that after a 15 year stint in the New
>>> York
> Philharmonic, the only students you could get would be kids who
> wouldn't practice? That seems barely tenable on its face.<<
>
> Put it this way. Using your own argument back at ya, if you've
> been there 15 years, and you get the boot, who would want to study
> with ya? You're old and lacking, the new guy would be much better,
> right?

The new guy has to rehearse three-four days a week and perform a
hectic concert schedule, plus tours.

>
>>> Again, since I have no stake in an orchestral job to earn a decent
> living <<
>
> Then why do you even care? Or are you just a troll?

It is not for you to decide what I am and am not allowed to care
about. I care because I love music - and I see serious issues with
the way the institutions are run today. That's enough.

>
> Lynn
>
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