Klarinet Archive - Posting 000073.txt from 2008/11

From: "Forest Aten" <forestaten@-----.com>
Subj: RE: [kl] After Drucker
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 01:43:57 -0500

I am 100% sure that someone could do your job better than you....

So....lets make it the task of this list...to compare your life's work =
and
if just by chance on a particular day....say 15 years from now...someone
shows better work....fire you and discount all that you've done up to =
that
point. Oh...you know...that guy's work that "beat you out" in the =
evaluation
wasn't all that much better...but the consensus was you're out.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alexander Brash [mailto:brash@-----.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 12:40 AM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: Re: [kl] After Drucker
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> > "Cogent".....how about this, people don't always fail to perform to =
a
> > particular standard at a particular age. Pretty simple. Some
> > players don't
> > fail because they are "older"....but for other reasons.
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> A rigorous audition process would sort that out no?
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> > If you've ever been a member of a "major" orchestra....you'd know
> > that the
> > work a player does everyday, is RIGHT there for God and everyone to
> > hear and
> > evaluate. Auditioning over and over again...just isn't necessary. =
It's
> > expensive, time consuming and simply isn't a necessary evil. If
> > people fail
> > to perform....they can and are often replaced...age related or not.
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> I'm not talking about failure to perform - simply someone else being
> able to do the job better.
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> > You know...I really don't like folks like you trying to decided who
> > should
> > and who shouldn't continue to perform....and for how long...and for
> > what
> > reasons. Blanket policy regarding this kind of issue is a huge =
waste.
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> And I don't like it when an industry clothes itself in a mythology of
> meritocracy, but shies away from introducing repeated measurements of
> merit. Should not the best always be given an opportunity to
> challenge and rise?
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> I've said nothing about when you should or should not retire - simply
> when someone else should get a crack at "winning" some of larger,
> more prestigious, higher paying jobs away from you. I think at last
> count in this thread, there were 30 groups total in that category?
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> Of course, the natural thing - an informal survey conducted tonight
> amongst 10 friends of mine - 3 at Juilliard and 7 at the New England
> Conservatory - all in their 20s, all universally supported the
> thought of a "term limit" after which a new audition is called.
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> Universally, everyone "older" who has replied to this thread, is
> violently against the idea.
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> So it seems in the end - the conclusion I make is that people are
> basically incapable of seeing beyond their own opportunism. (insert
> comment about Americans ;)
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> I'm also far from bored - I just find a lot lacking in the current
> conduct of the "Arts Business." This is certainly my right - it's not
> like I'm in a position to change anything, just to share my =
perspective.
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> On Nov 9, 2008, at 1:21 AM, Forest Aten wrote:
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> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Alexander Brash [mailto:brash@-----.edu]
> >> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 6:16 PM
> >> To: klarinet@-----.org
> >> Subject: Re: [kl] After Drucker
> >>
> >> People seem confused about the debate of "fact as it is today" =
versus
> >> "is this the way it should be?"
> >>
> >> All I pointed out was that at one point, mandatory retirement was
> >> considered an acceptable practice. As of 2002, I've found at least
> >> one article that mentions that both Vienna and Berlin had mandatory
> >> retirement at age 65. That's fairly recent. Those are both =
respected
> >> institutions. I'd argue there seems to be enough support for the =
idea
> >> to merit discussion.
> >>
> >> And so far, I've not seen much cogent argument for why =
re-auditioning
> >> orchestral players after, say, a 15 year contract, is a "bad" =
thing.
> >> Likewise, I've seen no one give a cogent argument for why mandatory
> >> retirement doesn't "make sense." Other than that it's personally
> >> offensive to you, which frankly I don't care about. It's personally
> >> offensive to many young musicians that there aren't such term =
limits
> >> or retirement ages...so who is to say your sense of "offense" =
should
> >> have more stature than theirs? The fact that "this is the way it is
> >> right now" is not an argument.
> >>
> >> I'm hoping for some intellectual debate here.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Because it's "the way" Berlin and Vienna did it....doesn't make it
> > a valid
> > way of doing things.
> >
> > If you've ever been a member of a "major" orchestra....you'd know
> > that the
> > work a player does everyday, is RIGHT there for God and everyone to
> > hear and
> > evaluate. Auditioning over and over again...just isn't necessary. =
It's
> > expensive, time consuming and simply isn't a necessary evil. If
> > people fail
> > to perform....they can and are often replaced...age related or not.
> >
> > "Cogent".....how about this, people don't always fail to perform to =
a
> > particular standard at a particular age. Pretty simple. Some
> > players don't
> > fail because they are "older"....but for other reasons.
> >
> > You're not "na=EFve".....just bored. Most organizations, =
wherever...have
> > sorted this out. It took the legal world in some cases to force the
> > issue.
> >
> > I'm taking my almost forced into retirement body to bed now. I've =
been
> > rather busy playing lately. Started the Dallas Opera season,
> > several church
> > orchestra free lance jobs performing some very interesting
> > music....and a
> > big recital to be performed on Monday evening. Guess I should be
> > thinking
> > about "packing it in" at 57 years old...huh?
> >
> > You know...I really don't like folks like you trying to decided who
> > should
> > and who shouldn't continue to perform....and for how long...and for
> > what
> > reasons. Blanket policy regarding this kind of issue is a huge =
waste.
> >
> > ZZZZZZZZ.....
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------

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