Klarinet Archive - Posting 000060.txt from 2008/11

From: Gary Van Cott <gary@-----.com>
Subj: Re: [kl] After Drucker
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 19:43:56 -0500

Age discrimination or mandatory requirement? As I recall the German
gentleman that ran Henle USA for a number of years (from the USA) was
forced to retire because of German law. I believe this took place in 2006.

Gary
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Gary Van Cott - Van Cott Information Services, Inc.
| Woodwind and Brass: Books, Music, CDs and More
| http://www.vcisinc.com/ --> VISA MasterCard Discover AmExp <--
| P.O. Box 9569, Las Vegas, NV 89191, USA
| Phone: 702-438-2102 Fax: 801-650-1719 Email: Gary@-----.com
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Matthew Lloyd wrote:
> Well, I've already told you that EU Law forbids it. Now I can't give a stuff
> about this, so you can no doubt look it up yourself. Then you'll know the
> situation in 2002.
>
> Matthew Lloyd.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alexander Brash [mailto:brash@-----.edu]
> Sent: 09 November 2008 00:16
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: Re: [kl] After Drucker
>
> People seem confused about the debate of "fact as it is today" versus
> "is this the way it should be?"
>
> All I pointed out was that at one point, mandatory retirement was
> considered an acceptable practice. As of 2002, I've found at least
> one article that mentions that both Vienna and Berlin had mandatory
> retirement at age 65. That's fairly recent. Those are both respected
> institutions. I'd argue there seems to be enough support for the idea
> to merit discussion.
>
> And so far, I've not seen much cogent argument for why re-auditioning
> orchestral players after, say, a 15 year contract, is a "bad" thing.
> Likewise, I've seen no one give a cogent argument for why mandatory
> retirement doesn't "make sense." Other than that it's personally
> offensive to you, which frankly I don't care about. It's personally
> offensive to many young musicians that there aren't such term limits
> or retirement ages...so who is to say your sense of "offense" should
> have more stature than theirs? The fact that "this is the way it is
> right now" is not an argument.
>
> I'm hoping for some intellectual debate here.
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 8, 2008, at 7:08 PM, Matthew Lloyd wrote:
>
>> European Law provides remedies against age discrimination. So the
>> Berlin
>> Philharmonic must have either changed their policies, or are
>> prepared to
>> face action in the courts... Penny also mentions ONE European
>> Orchestra -
>> there are rather more than that.
>>
>> Matthew Lloyd
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mr. Brash wrote:
>> So what this is saying, is that my previous posts were 100%
>> completely correct in terms of facts. Mandatory retirement did once
>> exist, and still does in some European orchestras. Therefore, I'd
>> humbly submit that this is a legitimate idea which deserves
>> discussion, and not ad hominem attacks on my naiveness? :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 8, 2008, at 6:56 PM, Penny Sprynet wrote:
>>
>>> The Age Discrimination in Employment Act was passed in 1967. Most
>>> orchestras did practice some form of mandatory retirement age
>>> before then, though it was bent and molded to match their
>>> preferences for a particular member most of the time. These were
>>> internal decisions, and they had far less oversight at that time by
>>> the AFM, who stepped in to enforce the ADEA in the early 1970s,
>>> helping several people win cases against their former employers, so
>>> today US orchestras no longer have such wording in their contracts.
>>>
>>> I understand that the Berlin Philharmonic still has a mandatory
>>> retirement age of 65, which they believe keeps their orchestra
>>> "young," but whether that improves it or not cannot be known. As
>>> far as other orchestras in Europe, I don't know their specific
>>> policies. On the other hand, in most countries in Europe your
>>> retirement years are not so financially precarious as they are
>>> likely to be here.
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>

------------------------------------------------------------------