Klarinet Archive - Posting 000064.txt from 2008/04

From: X-CTN-5-MailScanner-jhf@-----.gov
Subj: Re: [kl] Schubert 8th Symphony - 3/4 or 6/8?
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:00:46 -0400

With rare exceptions, I appreciate conductors who conduct the written
meter and don't attempt to indicate hemiolas or syncopation, for two
reasons: (1) it's less confusing and (2) these devices comprise
rhythmic tension that is more effective if not explicitly conducted.

--Joe

On Thu, 2008-04-10 at 15:24 +0100, Martin Baxter wrote:
> When doing "America" with an inexperienced band I beat two with the
> LH and and 3 with the RH using the size of my beat as a volume
> indicator. It is really very easy to do -try it.
> Martin
> On 9 Apr 2008, at 16:24, Roger Hewitt wrote:
>
> > This is interesting. I have always thought of the Schubert in 3/4 and
> > find it very disruptive to think of it any other way, but I can see
> > Forest's argument.
> >
> > One of the prime examples (in my experience) of the conflict
> > leading to
> > altered conducting is Bernstein's America from West Side Story. I
> > have
> > always seen this notated in 6/8, but many conductors, myself included,
> > conduct this as 6/8 then 3/4 in alternate bars for most of the time
> > with the odd exception bar here and there. But there is one bar that
> > causes dispute. I have onle ever met one conductor who steadfastly
> > conducted in 2. But there is definitely not "right" way, unless ...
> > does anyone know what Bernstein himself did?
> >
> > I think the answer depends on whether conducting a different way
> > successfully leads to a different result that the conductor is after.
> > And, of course, sometimes you have to help an inexperienced band in
> > the
> > way that a professional crew would not need.
> >
> > Just my few pennyworth,
> > Roger H
> >
> >
> > --- Forest Aten <forestaten@-----.com> wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> An orchestra I am playing with is doing Schubert's 8th
> >> ("Unfinished")
> >>> Symphony. The first movement is written in a 3/4 time signature,
> >> and I
> >>> have always "felt" the piece in that meter. However, the conductor
> >> is
> >>> insisting in conducting parts of it in a "2" feel of 6/8. So
> >> whereas I
> >>> always thought of the melody (e.g. dotted-half in one measure,
> >>> dotted-quarter eighth eighth eighth in the second) such that the
> >> first
> >>> eighth note in the second measure is more like a pickup to the
> >> third
> >>> beat, his conducting makes that first eighth note the first note in
> >> a
> >>> triplet.
> >>>
> >>> It's driving me crazy having to think of the piece in this way
> >> (mostly I
> >>> silently ignore him and think in 3), but perhaps this is as it was
> >>> intended and I've just thought about it wrong all my adult life.
> >> The
> >>> piece definitely has a 3 feel in many of the parts (he switches
> >> back and
> >>> forth in his conducting), but if some is intended to actually have
> >> a 6/8
> >>> feel then I find it easier to do 6/8 over 3/4 than to try to play a
> >> 3/4
> >>> part over 6/8 (e.g. the syncopated sections).
> >>>
> >>> I have been so far unsuccessful in finding any discussion of this
> >> online
> >>> and I can't say I've ever seen the piece conducted by a
> >> professional.
> >>> Listening to the recording I have (Academy of St Martin in the
> >> Fields)
> >>> doesn't help since the eighths seem to be without any accent and
> >> could
> >>> go either way. Has anyone ever come across this as an issue?
> >>>
> >>> Erik Tkal
> >>>
> >>
> >> All of the time.....
> >>
> >> Conductors will do this to facilitate a particularly difficult rhythm
> >> (often
> >> 3 on 2 or 3s across bar lines, etc.) While it makes things more
> >> difficult
> >> for some players....it makes things a lot easier for others.
> >> No matter which part you're involved with....you must keep the
> >> smallest
> >> value notes running in your internal rhythmic mechanism.
> >> Don't fight it....
> >>
> >> Good luck.
> >>
> >> Forest

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