Klarinet Archive - Posting 000115.txt from 2008/03

From: Margaret Thornhill <clarinetstudio@-----.com>
Subj: [kl] key signatures on clarinet/mouthpieces
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:09:42 -0400

Wayne and Karl,

The use of one mouthpiece and reed on all a player's instruments during
the 18th century or even the early 19th seems unlikely to me. A player
of the time would likely have owned numerous instruments, each needing a
slightly different setup if made by different makers. Modern players of
reproductions might be able to minimize the difference by custom work.
Modern makers of historical reproductions offer their own mouthpieces.

Al Rice's book on The Clarinet in the Classical Period (Oxford) contains
a nice discussion of construction differences between 4 and 5 key
clarinets of different manufacture from this period. Some of the
earliest were built with mouthpieces integral to the barrel. Mid 19th
century clarinets sometimes came with more than one mouthpiece from the
manufacturer--so it seems to have evolved as a separate concept as time
went by.

Since neither Tony nor Thomas has mentioned this yet, I just wanted to
suggest that the simplest game plan for early clarinets is to be playing
in C or in one sharp or flat whenever possible.

Our written D major--sounding C- would be less common than a part
written for C clarinet for these instruments. This is something to keep
in mind when looking at, for example, modern editions of the Lefevre
Sonatas for B-flat clarinet.

You can work out a few of the common clarinet/major key signature choices:

C clarinet---to play in C, F, G
B-flat---to play in B-flat, E-flat, F,(Reading, C,F,G)
A clarinet--to play in A, D, E (reading C,F,G)

(this is not to imply that an ambitious player would avoid all other keys!)

Margaret

http//www.margaretthornhill.com

>
> Wayne
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 18:10:56 -0400
> To: <klarinet@-----.org>
> From: "Karl Krelove" <karlkrelove@-----.net>
> Subject: RE: [kl] Key signatures for clarinets
> Message-id: <002b01c88557$1cc23e00$5646ba00$@net>
>
> No guilt aimed at you, Dan. It's those later composers who should have =
> taken the lesson to heart and either given us time to make the changes =
> they wanted or made do with picking the better choice of two instruments =
> and avoiding the change. Brahms's 3rd Symphony is 33 years out of the =
> era you're talking about, but he surely must have studied the =
> orchestrations of Mozart and Beethoven. I can't think of a place in =
> Beethoven, Mozart or, for that matter even Mendelssohn or Schubert in =
> which undo-able changes occur. They all, it seems to me, keep one =
> clarinet for at least an entire movement. I know you can't answer for =
> Brahms, Mahler et al, but it's always been a bit of a mystery to me what =
> those later Germans and French were thinking when they wrote changes =
> with beats rather than even measures in which to make them.=20
>
> Do we know, was the general performance practice during that 1750-1850 =
> period to use the same mouthpiece or to equip each instrument with a =
> different mouthpiece and reed?
>
> Karl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Leeson [mailto:dnleeson@-----.net]=20
> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:39 PM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: RE: [kl] Key signatures for clarinets
>
> Well, Karl, I said that I was talking about the era from ca. 1750 to ca. =
> 1850. So no guilt, please. I'm merely stating what were the likely =
> reasons underlying multiple pitched clarinets and the consequences of =
> having to put up with them.
>
> Dan Leeson
> dnleeson@-----.net=20
> SKYPE: dnleeson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karl Krelove [mailto:karlkrelove@-----.net]
> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 1:28 PM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: RE: [kl] Key signatures for clarinets
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Leeson [mailto:dnleeson@-----.net]=20
> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 3:37 PM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: RE: [kl] Key signatures for clarinets
> <large snip>The problem is caused, of course, by the fact that there is =
> insufficient time to change clarinets in the works involved
>
> Hrmmph!!! Certainly didn't stop Brahms, Mahler and a lot of others - =
> right up to the Broadway arrangers who want instrument changes that are =
> almost instantaneous.
>
> Karl
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 16:07:54 -0700
> To: <klarinet@-----.org>
> From: "Daniel Leeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
> Subject: RE: [kl] Key signatures for clarinets
> Message-ID: <FJEKIMDEOJFJPBKBMDOPIEDMFLAA.dnleeson@-----.net>
>
> I have seen a set of three clarinets that belonged to the same Viennese =
> play (name unknown to me), and each clarinet had its own mouthpiece. If =
> that situation was the norm, then mouthpiece changing never happened.
>
> Dan Leeson
> dnleeson@-----.net=20
> SKYPE: dnleeson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karl Krelove [mailto:karlkrelove@-----.net]
> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 3:11 PM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: RE: [kl] Key signatures for clarinets
>
> No guilt aimed at you, Dan. It's those later composers who should have =
> taken the lesson to heart and either given us time to make the changes =
> they wanted or made do with picking the better choice of two instruments =
> and avoiding the change. Brahms's 3rd Symphony is 33 years out of the =
> era you're talking about, but he surely must have studied the =
> orchestrations of Mozart and Beethoven. I can't think of a place in =
> Beethoven, Mozart or, for that matter even Mendelssohn or Schubert in =
> which undo-able changes occur. They all, it seems to me, keep one =
> clarinet for at least an entire movement. I know you can't answer for =
> Brahms, Mahler et al, but it's always been a bit of a mystery to me what =
> those later Germans and French were thinking when they wrote changes =
> with beats rather than even measures in which to make them.=20
>
> Do we know, was the general performance practice during that 1750-1850 =
> period to use the same mouthpiece or to equip each instrument with a =
> different mouthpiece and reed?
>
> Karl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Leeson [mailto:dnleeson@-----.net]=20
> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:39 PM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: RE: [kl] Key signatures for clarinets
>
> Well, Karl, I said that I was talking about the era from ca. 1750 to ca. =
> 1850. So no guilt, please. I'm merely stating what were the likely =
> reasons underlying multiple pitched clarinets and the consequences of =
> having to put up with them.
>
> Dan Leeson
> dnleeson@-----.net=20
> SKYPE: dnleeson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karl Krelove [mailto:karlkrelove@-----.net]
> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 1:28 PM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: RE: [kl] Key signatures for clarinets
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Leeson [mailto:dnleeson@-----.net]=20
> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 3:37 PM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: RE: [kl] Key signatures for clarinets
> <large snip>The problem is caused, of course, by the fact that there is =
> insufficient time to change clarinets in the works involved
>
> Hrmmph!!! Certainly didn't stop Brahms, Mahler and a lot of others - =
> right up to the Broadway arrangers who want instrument changes that are =
> almost instantaneous.
>
> Karl
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Woodwind.Org 2008 Donation Drive has started. Visit
> https://secure.donax-us.com/donation/ for more information.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Woodwind.Org 2008 Donation Drive has started. Visit
> https://secure.donax-us.com/donation/ for more information.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Woodwind.Org 2008 Donation Drive has started. Visit
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 20:47:30 -0400
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> From: Thomas Carroll <Thomas.Carroll@-----.edu>
> Subject: Re: [kl] Key Signatures for Clarinets
> Message-id: <f9bb5e35341ca.341caf9bb5e35@-----.edu>
>
> It's not so much difficult as it is more awkward. On a five key
> instrument, you'll notice there's no cross key for C#/G#, which means
> that a true diatonic scale in the key of D creates the need for a
> half/hole/cross fingering for C# if the passage goes down that low.
> Likewise, an F# in the clarion register is a cross fingering note and is
> therefore not as strong as the rest of the scale. Composers like
> Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, etc exploited these weaknesses in the 5-key
> horns (the clarion Bb in the second movement of the Mozart Quintet
> sounds completely different when played with a key on an early horn than
> it does with the cross fingering). In terms of flat keys, I think it
> really depends on the keys. Ab would have been a bit harder in fast
> passages due to the need to slide in the right hand pinky and the lack
> of an Ab side key like on modern horns. Again, the lack of a left hand
> Db/Ab key would figure in.
>
> This is why you see so many "early" pieces in F and C (regardless of C,
> Bb, or A horns), those were the natural sclaes of the instruments, and
> the scales that could be played with five keys.
>
> Of course, there are clever ways to get around some of the problems with
> the 5-key horns. Sliding from the C-Eb in the clarion register, as well
> as between the two long keys was easy way to get a relatively smooth
> connection in more awkward keys (a good example of the need for sliding
> is the first clarinet solo in the second movement of the Beethoven
> Violin Concerto).
>
> ~Thomas
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wayne Thompson <wthompson7274@-----.net>
> Date: Thursday, March 13, 2008 5:28 pm
> Subject: [kl] Key Signatures for Clarinets
> To: klarinet@-----.org
>
>> I'm curious to hear from 5 key clarinet players. Is it more
>> difficult to play in D than in Bb? I know that I consider flat
>> keys easier on my modern clarinet, and I remember flat keys easier
>> on the recorder, which is very similar to the 5 key, I think? But
>> maybe that is custom and simply the order I learned my scales on
>> both instruments.
>> Here's a fingering chart for 5 key clarinets, thanks to Anne Bell.
>> http://www.anne-bell.woodwind.org/ABCtutor.htm
>>
>> Wayne
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The Woodwind.Org 2008 Donation Drive has started. Visit
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>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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