Klarinet Archive - Posting 000162.txt from 2008/01

From: "Daniel Leeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
Subj: RE: [kl] bartok/k-622/A vs. Bb arrogance/etc
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 12:55:51 -0500

Jonathan, I'd have to think about your suggestion, but it might very well be
plausible. Let me tell you how the discovery was made about the instrument
going down to low B-natural.

After Pamela made her remarkable discovery, several instrument makers built
basset horns base on the sketch she provided (and if memory serve me
correctly, that sketch was in the Clarinet magazine as part of an article by
Pamela). The American clarinetist (Hubrich -- spelling???) who lives in the
Netherlands and teaches there was one of the people who built one. In
playing it, one day, he was playing low C while his leg accidentally covered
the vent hole. Out came a low B-natural! A miracle?? Something new!!

Later, it was discovered that two basset horns (not a typo, basset horns,
not basset clarinets here) in a museum in Europe both had the same vent hole
and both and a key over the vent hole so that the low B-natural could be
played is a more accomdating fashion than simply covering the hole with the
leg (actually, the calf, probably). But no example or reference to a basset
clarinet having a key over the vent hole exists. Maybe some day, we shall
find one.

One of the problems I face is trying to determine where in the text of 622
or 581 or elsewhere, the low B-natural might be employed, and your
suggestion is going to go into the pot of possible places.

Isn't discovery grand?

Dan Leeson
dnleeson@-----.net
SKYPE: dnleeson

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Cohler [mailto:cohler@-----.org]
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 9:43 AM
To: klarinet@-----.org
Subject: RE: [kl] bartok/k-622/A vs. Bb arrogance/etc

That's VERY interesting about the low B that you mention, because I
have always felt (with no evidence other than analysis and
conjecture, of course), that there is at least one spot in the solo
part that should go to the low B. I always wondered about that, but
had never heard until now, that the instrument DID go to low B.

Since the manuscript was lost, it's just a guess, but it is clear
that subsequent editors made changes to accomodate the "normal"
clarinet that only goes down to low E.

In measure 295 of the first movement, the second and third beats have
F, D, B, G, F descending from the first space F. My guess is that
this was supposed to be B, G, F, D, B descending from the B just
below the staff. (by analogy with the same passage in the exposition,
and by the fact that the figure as printed doesn't seem very
"Mozartaen" for a variety of reasons)

--Jonathan

At 8:45 AM -0800 1/9/08, Daniel Leeson wrote:
>Pamela is a powerhouse!! It was her work and her work alone that allow
the
>rediscovery of a picture of Stadler's basset clarinet. Prior to that time,
>the existence of such an instrument was entirely based on unexplainable
>peculiarities in the text of K. 622. But Pamela found a program in which
>Stadler played K. 622 in a concert venue in Latvia or Lithuania. I forget.
>And in that program was a sketch of Stadler's instrument. It was so strange
>that the management decided to show a picture of this bizarre instrument,
>thank goodness. Without it we would still be arguing if Stadler really had
>such an instrument.
>
>Some of the "make your own clarinetists" went mad with delight when they
saw
>that the bell of the instrument was shaped like an English horn bell. And
>further, that there was a vent hole at the lower end of the lower joint
>through which the air came when the low C was played.
>
>That vent hole has now given rise to the theory that the instrument did not
>go down to low C, but rather to low B-natural when the vent hole was closed
>with a pad or even the use of the leg to cover it.
>
>Dan Leeson
>dnleeson@-----.net
>SKYPE: dnleeson
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jonathan Cohler [mailto:cohler@-----.org]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 8:33 PM
>To: klarinet@-----.org
>Subject: RE: [kl] bartok/k-622/A vs. Bb arrogance/etc
>
>
>Thanks, Dan, for the spelling correction and the note about the
>instrument's name. Yes according to an interesting article I just
>found on the web (by Pamela L. Poulin):
>
> http://symposium.music.org/cgi-bin/m_symp_show.pl?id=241
>
>the terms "bass clarinet", "basset clarinet" and "newly invented
>clarinet" were all used to describe the instrument in the 18th and
>early 19th centuries. She has lots of good sources, references and
>facsimiles in the article. Including, of course, references to some
>of your work Dan!
>
>--Jonathan
>
>At 5:28 PM -0800 1/8/08, Daniel Leeson wrote:
>>I always thought that the term "basset clarinet" was a modern invention,
>but
>>Nicolas Shackelton shaped my head right when he point out two 18th century
>>sources calling the instrument a basset clarinet.
>>
>>Dan Leeson
>>dnleeson@-----.net
>>SKYPE: dnleeson
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jonathan Cohler [mailto:cohler@-----.org]
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 5:21 PM
>>To: klarinet@-----.org
>>Subject: Re: [kl] bartok/k-622/A vs. Bb arrogance/etc
>>
>>
>>The Mozart Concerto was written for an extended A clarinet, that has
>>been dubbed the "bassett clarinet" not to be confused with the
>>"bassett horn" or alto clarinet.
>>
>>So, the answer to your question is no, an A-clarinet sounds more like
>>a bassett clarinet than an alto clarinet. Of course, a bassett
>>clarinet is the best choice.
>>
>>--Jonathan
>>
>>>been lurking here a year or so - here's my first post:
>>>
>>>>Therefore, if color is the argument for instrument choice, and only
>>>>modern-day instruments are at hand, then using a modern day A
>>>>clarinet to play a Beethoven C clarinet part would be a BETTER choice
>>>>than using a modern day C clarinet!
> >>
>>>thanks for mentioning that.
>>>following that logic, should one play the mozart concerto on alto
clarinet
>>>- at least at auditions? :) - isn't an alto closer to a basset-horn than
>an
>>A?
>>>
>>>IMHO, the timbre differences between A/Bb are too subtle to support
>>>any kind of historical accuracy/composer intent argument. and even
>>>if a few low Ebs have to be changed or tongue-on-the-reed "lipped
>>>down", who cares? arrogance? composers are are far more arrogant..
>>>use the composer's score as a tool to make good music - not the
>>>other way around!
>>>
>>>m@
>>>http://sfsound.org/matt
>>>
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>
>>--
>>Jonathan Cohler
>>Artistic & General Director
>>International Woodwind Festival
>>http://iwwf.org/
>>cohler@-----.org
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>
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>
>
>--
>Jonathan Cohler
>Artistic & General Director
>International Woodwind Festival
>http://iwwf.org/
>cohler@-----.org
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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--
Jonathan Cohler
Artistic & General Director
International Woodwind Festival
http://iwwf.org/
cohler@-----.org

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