Klarinet Archive - Posting 000115.txt from 2007/11
From: "Karl Krelove" <karlkrelove@-----.net>
Subj: RE: [kl] Finding a mouthpiece
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:41:26 -0500
Steve,
I'm always curious about how other players use double lip, because so few
actually still play that way. Your reasons for using double lip and mine
seem almost identical, except that I switch back and forth because I find
that some reeds and some music seem to work better one way and others work
better the other way. Single lip also gives me better results in altissimo
passages. Double lip helps with long phrases because I'm more prone to small
air leaks when I use single lip. I do find I'm able to adapt to a greater
variety of reeds with double lip - it's especially easier (oddly enough, I
think) for me to accommodate stiffer reeds or newer ones that are starting
to soak up as I play on them in a rehearsal or concert. When I use single
lip I still pull my upper lip back against my upper teeth and as closely as
possible duplicate the double lip without actually tucking my lip under.
This approach actually gives me nearly all the advantages of double lip
except that it's easier for me to maintain when my lip is actually under my
teeth. I started doing this way back in college when Gigliotti suggested it
to me as a way to solve some of the problems I was having (as a college
undergrad) with reed control (did Lurie study with Bonade - as Gigliotti did
- or Ralph McLane? - I can't remember. It might explain their both having
suggested double lip. Maybe Bonade used it as a teaching technique).
Although he meant it to be a temporary approach to forming what he
considered a correct single lip embouchure (he never played double lip
either, as far as I know), I just never gave it up. I used to rest the
clarinet on my right knee until I realized, relatively recently, that it was
causing technical problems for my left hand, which ends up being slightly
out of its ideal position that way. I now either don't support the clarinet
at all or hold it between my knees (so it's centered) or, if I don't have
quick changes to make between Bb and A clarinets, I sometimes use a neck
strap. It seems to me I've seen a number of photos of Wright supporting the
instrument on his knee, and I've read that he always sat, even for concerto
performances. Gigliotti, even playing single lip, started resting the
instrument on his knee later in his career - I think to relieve wrist
strain.
Can you describe your discomfort any more specifically? I happen to have an
old Obrien crystal mouthpiece in my desk drawer. I'm surprised to find when
I weigh it on my wife's food scale that it actually weighs 2 oz., double the
weight of one of my Zinner hard rubber mouthpieces. It's still hard for me
to imagine that the part of that one ounce difference that is south of your
lower lip when you play, when added to the weight of the rest of the
clarinet, is enough to make a difference. I don't feel a difference in
comfort when I try to play with the crystal mouthpiece, but I don't play on
it for very long because I don't like the way it sounds and responds. I also
use a rubber patch on top of the mouthpiece.
How much upper lip do you take in? Gigliotti (who didn't use double lip)
talked about using the same amount of lip on top and bottom. During the one
lesson I took with Harold Wright (who did play double lip), he talked about
using a "very thin membrane" on top, not the same thickness as most players
use under the reed. Also, I find that I tend to play with the instrument at
a closer angle to my chin (and the rest of my upper body) when I play single
lip. When I use both lips, I tend to hold the instrument out away from
myself a little more, which takes some of the pressure off of my upper lip
from the mouthpiece beak's rotating outward as the clarinet comes in
farther.
If you do change mouthpieces, I'd be curious to know if it relieves your
discomfort. I think you said you were using a Vandoren crystal? I'd go to
their website (or look at the insert they put in their reed boxes) to find
the hard rubber mouthpiece that seems to be most nearly the same facing (I
think you said open tip with a short to medium length). One or two of their
rubber mouthpieces must fit that description. Do you know the actual
measurements of your crystal's facing?
Good luck!
Karl
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Perry [mailto:stephanperry007@-----.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 8:41 PM
To: klarinet@-----.org
Subject: Re: [kl] Finding a mouthpiece
Karl:
Thanks for the thoughtful message. I wanted to make some comments and so
thought it might be better to do this off-list.
The suggestion for a lighter mouthpiece was made for comfort. I've been
playing double lip for about 5 months now and I'm still not comfortable with
it. I did find some pads in the local hardware store that help. They don't
affect the pitch or the sound and I'm determined to tough it out.
The reason for switching back to double lip is that the result is better. I
had the good fortune to have a couple of lessons with Mitchell Lurie in the
summer and although he doesn't teach double lip (and never has) he
encouraged me to use it because I get a much better result.. I had played
double lip in college and had to stop after a dental injury. I switched to
single lip and never went back.
My solution for now is to rest the bell on my knee or between my knees. I
try not to use any pressure and it's basically finger action that causes
problems. It seems to be getting better but at a slow rate.
Anyway, your insight into the mouthpiece switch gave me something to think
about.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karl Krelove" <karlkrelove@-----.net>
To: <klarinet@-----.org>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 11:51 AM
Subject: RE: [kl] Finding a mouthpiece
> Steve,
>
> You may be going down a wrong path in buying a different mouthpiece so
> soon
> after starting an embouchure change like the one you're making. I play
> double lip some of the time, and I'm not so sure based on my experience
> that
> the weight of the mouthpiece will really make much if any difference in
> your
> comfort level. I'm assuming the suggestion was made to minimize the
> pressure
> against your upper lip between the mouthpiece and your teeth - if there
> was
> some other reason, then you can disregard the rest of this post. I'm not
> sure the weight of the crystal will make much difference when you tuck
> your
> upper lip in. The weight pushing up against your upper lip against your
> teeth is caused by the weight of the entire clarinet rotating around your
> contact point underneath the reed. If you consider how little the weight
> difference between a crystal mouthpiece and a hard rubber one would
> represent as a part of the whole instrument, especially so close to the
> fulcrum (your bottom teeth and lip), it's hard to imagine that it would
> matter.
>
> A couple of ideas occur to me after reading your post. Why are you
> switching
> (back) to double lip? Is it a question of not liking to have your upper
> teeth resting directly on the mouthpiece, or are you trying to solve some
> kind of control problem?
>
> If you're just uncomfortable with your teeth on the mouthpiece, then I
> don't
> think you'll find it hard to use the mouthpiece you already have. You will
> need to tough it out for a couple of weeks, and be sure you're doing
> enough
> with the embouchure muscles (in the lips, not your jaw) to support the
> reed
> and mouthpiece all the way around. Looking for a lighter weight mouthpiece
> may turn out to be a waste of energy and money.
>
> If there's some basic problem with response or control that you're trying
> to
> solve, it's possible that a new mouthpiece *instead of* the embouchure
> change (or even in addition to it) may be a better road to try. And if
> that's the actual situation, trying to duplicate what you already are
> using
> in a lighter-weight material may end up just perpetuating the basic
> problem.
>
> What exactly have you set out to accomplish with these changes?
>
> Karl
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Perry [mailto:stephanperry007@-----.net]
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:54 PM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: [kl] Finding a mouthpiece
>
> ... Am I going down the
> wrong path thinking I need an open tip and short facing?
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.0/1139 - Release Date:
> 11/19/2007 12:35 PM
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------
