Klarinet Archive - Posting 000104.txt from 2007/05

From: "Tony Pay" <tony.p@-----.org>
Subj: Re: [kl] Wagner
Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 17:05:07 -0400

Even if the ladder had a rung or two missing, you still used it;-)

Tony

On 5/13/07, dnleeson <dnleeson@-----.net> wrote:
> Not at all Sarah. It is rather that you so uninformed about the
> situation that you have dates, circumstances, and reasons all
> mixed up. You don't even have the right information about when
> and why the IPO stopped playing Wagner. If you had read Uri
> Toeplitz' history of the IPO, you might have gotten it right.
>
> Dan Leeson
> DNLeeson@-----.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sarah elbaz [mailto:sarah@-----.com]
> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 11:56 AM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: RE: [kl] SV: Wagner
>
>
> Dan,
> I am sure that you are very glad that someone gave you the ladder
> to get off the tree :-)
> Sarah
>
>
> > -------Original Message-------
> > From: dnleeson <dnleeson@-----.net>
> > Subject: RE: [kl] SV: Wagner
> > Sent: 13 May '07 20:08
> >
> > With Sarah Elbaz's comments that depart from the central issue
> of
> > the Wagner discussion, I now withdraw from further
> participation
> > in what has now become a confused mess. Instead of the problem
> > becoming focused, it has become diffused and chaotic.
> >
> > Dan Leeson
> > DNLeeson@-----.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sarah elbaz [mailto:sarah@-----.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 10:22 AM
> > To: klarinet@-----.org
> > Subject: Re: [kl] SV: Wagner
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -------Original Message-------
> > > From: Paolo Leva <paolo.leva@-----.se>
> > > Subject: [kl] SV: Wagner
> > > Sent: 13 May '07 08:53
> > >
> > > IMHO the complexity of Wagner's Ring really cannot be
> > > reduced to "good characters" against the "evil ones".
> > > There are no characters in the ring that are simply
> > > good and others that are simply bad. I wonder whether
> > > Wagner had any interest at all in concepts like "good"
> > > and "bad", I believe he did not.
> > >
> > > This kind of good/bad classification is a
> > > simplification that might be appropriate for Disney,
> > > Tolkien and much of nowadays "action movies" crap, not
> > > for Wagner. The complexity of both characters and
> > > music is much greater than that. The complexity
> > > further increase when you put text and music together,
> > > since often they tell different, even opposite things.
> > >
> > > For instance to see Siegfried as the "good" one
> > > prevailing against Mime the "bad" one is to extract
> > > one episode and choose to ignore the context.
> > > Unfortunately this is exactly the simplification done
> > > by the nazi to be able to use the Ring in their
> > > propaganda. I believe and hope that it is now time to
> > > move away from that simplification.
> > >
> > > The Wagner of the ring is in many respect the same
> > > person that earlier wrote Tannh=E4user and later wrote
> > > Parsifal, a man deeply involved to understand the
> > > human condition, its suffering, its fall and its way
> > > to redemption.
> > >
> > > The mix of mythologies (German and other) was the tool
> > > he chose to deliver his message and to represent the
> > > human mind. It was not THE message.
> > >
> > > I myself found the book of Robert Donington "Wagner's
> > > Ring and its symbol" quite a stimulating reading to
> > > catch this complexity, but most of all I recommend
> > > people wondering about antisemitism in Wagner's ring
> > > to go and see the whole ring with an open mind.
> > >
> > > Paolo
> >
> > Paolo,
> >
> > I think that there is a big misunderstanding here. The debat
> "
> > To Wagner or not to Wagner"
> > has nothing to do with his music, it is about the abuse of
> > Wagner's music by the Nazis.
> >
> > The boycott started in Israel in 1952. Yasha Heifetz played
> > Richard Strauss and after the concert
> > someone attact him with an hammer. Only then people started
> to
> > understand that the surviviors
> > can not hear this music and the Israel Phil decided not to
> play
> > Wagner and Strauss.
> >
> > Wagner was a greart composer, there is no argument about that.
> > Dan Lesson can write anything about Wagner
> > but when he turns on the television and watches hundreds of
> > advertisements, he praises
> > Wagner. After all , what is an advertisement if not a
> > leitmotiv?.
> >
> > Tony and I had a long discussion about that when he was in
> Israel
> > last December. I told him that
> > the boycott against Wagner's music can not stop because for so
> > many people the holocaust
> > is not over yet. There are people among us who have no idea
> when
> > and where they were born,
> > who are their parents and what is their name. People with
> second
> > and third generation syndrom
> > can not affoerd the luxury of such debats because they need
> all
> > the energy in the world to get up
> > in the morning. I have nothing against Wagner's music , but
> > since Israel is a SHELTER and not just another
> > state the priorities here are different.
> >
> > If we want to to have a serious discussion about antisemitism,
> I
> > think that we should face some more
> > difficult questions.
> > For example: Amazon .com . Is there any one on this list
> who
> > didn't buy or sell books and CD's
> > through Amazon? And if I tell you that Amazon sells more
> copies
> > of the" Protocols of the Elders of Zion"
> > then the Bible and they refuse to stop spreading this poison
> > because of the profit they make from this book, would you
> still
> > buy ans sell through Amazon?
> > I would love to get an answer to this question.
> > Sarah Elbaz
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > S=F6kmotor, shopping, resor och gratis E-post online.
> > >
> >
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