Klarinet Archive - Posting 000058.txt from 2007/05

From: Hartmut Gehrke-Tschudi <hgtschudi@-----.de>
Subj: [kl] Re: klarinet Digest 6 May 2007 21:01:01 -0000 Issue 7250
Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 15:26:21 -0400

klarinet-digest-help@-----.org wrote:
> klarinet Digest 6 May 2007 21:01:01 -0000 Issue 7250
>
> Topics (messages 90647 through 90651):
>
> Re: Carmina Burana
> 90647 by: danyel
> 90648 by: dnleeson
> 90649 by: Simon Aldrich
> 90650 by: dnleeson
> 90651 by: MPWord -- Vann Turner
>
> Administrivia:
>
> To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:
> klarinet-digest-subscribe@-----.org
>
>
> To post to the list, e-mail:
> klarinet@-----.org
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 13:38:15 +0200
> To: <klarinet@-----.org>
> From: "danyel" <rab@-----.de>
> Subject: Re: [kl]Carmina Burana
> Message-ID: <00a001c78fd3$0ad71e10$5d14fea9@oemm4rt5ad1159>
>
> Dan, your reaction upon repeated exposure to that piece shows quite clearly
> what Orff's music is like: catchy but completely insubstantial. That could
> also serve as a definition of Nazi aesthetics. Whether this catchiness and
> pomp is made use of for propagandistic purposes (like Beethoven was used as
> a background music to Nazi propaganda shows and films) is another question.
> Carmina Burana was premiered on a big time Nazi music festival, while Anton
> Webern (who still lived in the occupied Austria) was forbidden to even write
> music.
>
> apropos: ...In Orff...
>
> The original Goethe quotation used as a rather crude insult in German goes:
> Leck mich im Arsch! (lick *inside* my ass). It sometimes is corrupted to a
> slightly less offensive "am Arsch" (more like kiss my butt).
>

The quote is from Goethe`s Play: "Goetz von Berlichingen" 3. Act
In my edition of the Play it reads like this : "Er* *aber, sags ihm,
er kann mich - - - "
Everybody knows what is left out. - It´s the so called: "Schwäbischer
Gruß! It`s hard to translate in english, like: swabian Hello?)
See : http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schw%C3%A4bischer_Gru%C3%9F . ( in
german ! )
"Im Arsch" or "am Arsch" you cannot really tell with swabian dialect.
Still, everybody knows - where it is meant to be . ;-) Its like "kiss
my butt" and a pretty crude insult. You will be sued for it.

greetings Hartmut

> There is a story that Hindemith (who did not quite catch on with the Nazis
> because Hitler had once heard his Sancta Susanna, a short opera from
> Hindemith's wild youth featuring a naked nun) used to say: "Egck mich am
> Orff", referring to the two most prominent Nazi composers who continued
> their careers like nothing had happened after the liberation. One should try
> to work-in also Richard Strauss who was another Nazi music official.
>
> Best regards,
> danyel
>
> www.echoton.de/clar.html
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dnleeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
> To: <klarinet@-----.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 12:23 AM
> Subject: RE: [kl]Carmina Burana
>
>
>> I end this with a remark made to me by the great Dutch
>> musicologist, Marius Flothuis. We were discussing Orff and he
>> said, "You understand the meaning of the phrase, 'Leck mich in
>> arsch'"? And I said, "Of course." It's German and means "Kiss my
>> ass."
>>
>> Flothuis then said, "Leck mich in Orff!!" It's tough to
>> translate the meaning of that, but it is a distinct insult to
>> both Orff and his music. A well deserved insult, I think.
>>
>> Dan Leeson
>> DNLeeson@-----.net
>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 06:50:25 -0800
> To: <klarinet@-----.org>
> From: "dnleeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
> Subject: RE: [kl]Carmina Burana
> Message-ID: <FJEKIMDEOJFJPBKBMDOPMEBPFCAA.dnleeson@-----.net>
>
> Good posting, but I'd like to stick up for Strauss. He was too
> stupid to be a real Nazi, and it is hard to see genuine prejudice
> in the man. He just wanted to be left alone, and if being a Nazi
> symbol and sympathizer did that, he was willing to accept the
> role. But his carelessness caused his Hitlerian downfall. After
> his librettist Hugo von Hoftsmanthal died he tried to interest
> the Viennese Jew, Stefan Zweig, into collaborating with him on
> his next opera. And foolishly, he included in his letter a
> lengthy paragraph that said, in subtance, "You don't have to
> worry about that idiot Hitler. I'll take care of him. In fact I
> am, thorough my music, a great deal stronger than him." (Not a
> direct quote.)
>
> Bad move. The letter was intercepted by the Nazis and that was
> the end of the influence that Strauss had in Germany for pretty
> much the duration of the war. He was smart enough to get his
> Jewish daughter-in-law out of Garmisch and into Switzerland.
>
> At worst, Strauss was a dumb putz who wrote excellent clarinet
> music and insisted on the use of the C clarinet. His opera, Frau
> ohne Schatten, has an extensive basset horn part, the last two
> pages of which require a change to clarinet in C, all this while
> the rest of the clarinet section is busy on their B-flat
> clarinets. And his Till Eulenspiegel bass clarinet part is still
> a joy to play.
>
> Strauss was a very ordinary man who, after breakfast, would go
> into his room to compose. He sat down at his desk and was
> instantly transformed into a genius.
>
> Dan Leeson
> DNLeeson@-----.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: danyel [mailto:rab@-----.de]
> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 3:38 AM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: Re: [kl]Carmina Burana
>
> Dan, your reaction upon repeated exposure to that piece shows
> quite clearly
> what Orff's music is like: catchy but completely insubstantial.
> That could
> also serve as a definition of Nazi aesthetics. Whether this
> catchiness and
> pomp is made use of for propagandistic purposes (like Beethoven
> was used as
> a background music to Nazi propaganda shows and films) is another
> question.
> Carmina Burana was premiered on a big time Nazi music festival,
> while Anton
> Webern (who still lived in the occupied Austria) was forbidden to
> even write
> music.
>
> apropos: ...In Orff...
>
> The original Goethe quotation used as a rather crude insult in
> German goes:
> Leck mich im Arsch! (lick *inside* my ass). It sometimes is
> corrupted to a
> slightly less offensive "am Arsch" (more like kiss my butt).
> There is a story that Hindemith (who did not quite catch on with
> the Nazis
> because Hitler had once heard his Sancta Susanna, a short opera
> from
> Hindemith's wild youth featuring a naked nun) used to say: "Egck
> mich am
> Orff", referring to the two most prominent Nazi composers who
> continued
> their careers like nothing had happened after the liberation. One
> should try
> to work-in also Richard Strauss who was another Nazi music
> official.
>
> Best regards,
> danyel
>
> www.echoton.de/clar.html
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dnleeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
> To: <klarinet@-----.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 12:23 AM
> Subject: RE: [kl]Carmina Burana
>
>
>> I end this with a remark made to me by the great Dutch
>> musicologist, Marius Flothuis. We were discussing Orff and he
>> said, "You understand the meaning of the phrase, 'Leck mich in
>> arsch'"? And I said, "Of course." It's German and means "Kiss
>>
> my
>
>> ass."
>>
>> Flothuis then said, "Leck mich in Orff!!" It's tough to
>> translate the meaning of that, but it is a distinct insult to
>> both Orff and his music. A well deserved insult, I think.
>>
>> Dan Leeson
>> DNLeeson@-----.net
>>
>>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> -
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 11:10:30 -0400
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> From: Simon Aldrich <simonaldrich@-----.ca>
> Subject: Re: Carmina Burana
> Message-id: <0C1FC084-6455-4F8B-AD4E-B3179C2A4CF5@-----.ca>
>
> I did a North American tour with my orchestra for the production =20
> company Monumental Opera.
> They have been staging Carmina Burana for years now.
> It is an elaborate, gothic, "Lord of the Rings" type of staging, =20
> complete with fire-breathing ogres, ulcered fiends, nude nymphs, =20
> revolting trolls, monster trucks and cauldrons of burning oil (under =20
> which the clarinets were positioned).
> The shows had to be done in big arenas (Washington's MCI Center, =20
> Montreal's Bell Centre, Chicago's United Center, etc.).
>
> Carmina is a good piece to do on a tour like that because it is easy =20
> enough to play sleep-deprived.
> Plus the rock-opera electricity in the air gives you the adrenalin =20
> boost you need for the hour-long show.
> You can get an idea of the staging by viewing a videoclip here:
> http://www.carmina-burana.com/html/english/en_video/envideo.php
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------=20=
>
> ---
> Simon Aldrich simonaldrich@-----.ca
>
> Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
> Principal Clarinet - Orchestre M=E9tropolitain de Montr=E9al
> Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Op=E9ra de Montr=E9al
> Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne=
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 07:41:32 -0800
> To: <klarinet@-----.org>
> From: "dnleeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
> Subject: RE: [kl] Re: Carmina Burana
> Message-ID: <FJEKIMDEOJFJPBKBMDOPMECAFCAA.dnleeson@-----.net>
>
> Simon, I looked at the brief excerpt and can fully understand how
> it would a knockout of a show.
>
> Do you have any clips with the nude mymphs????? Now that's
> staging I'd to see and comment on.
>
> Dan Leeson
> DNLeeson@-----.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Simon Aldrich [mailto:simonaldrich@-----.ca]
> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 7:11 AM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: [kl] Re: Carmina Burana
>
> I did a North American tour with my orchestra for the production
> company Monumental Opera.
> They have been staging Carmina Burana for years now.
> It is an elaborate, gothic, "Lord of the Rings" type of staging,
> complete with fire-breathing ogres, ulcered fiends, nude nymphs,
> revolting trolls, monster trucks and cauldrons of burning oil
> (under
> which the clarinets were positioned).
> The shows had to be done in big arenas (Washington's MCI Center,
> Montreal's Bell Centre, Chicago's United Center, etc.).
>
> Carmina is a good piece to do on a tour like that because it is
> easy
> enough to play sleep-deprived.
> Plus the rock-opera electricity in the air gives you the
> adrenalin
> boost you need for the hour-long show.
> You can get an idea of the staging by viewing a videoclip here:
> http://www.carmina-burana.com/html/english/en_video/envideo.php
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> ---
> Simon Aldrich simonaldrich@-----.ca
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 16:29:06 -0400
> To: <klarinet@-----.org>
> From: "MPWord -- Vann Turner" <vjoet@-----.net>
> Subject: Carmina Burana
> Message-ID: <5EB44DBDF3124850B696C5A56AA78B58@VannPC>
>
> Methinks if we were to judge the quality of music on the standard previously
> proposed -- whether the parts are challenging -- we'd trash a lot of really
> good music. Instantly coming to mind is Ravel's Bolero, and much of Mahler
> and Wagner and Bruckner.
>
> I think we need to listen to the Carmina for what it is intended to be:
> primitive, bawdy, earthy music. No, it's not Mozart. Neither is it
> Shostakovich, but I think it is excellent, and would hate to see glib,
> humorous comments about it diminish it prematurely for those who have not
> yet heard it.
>
> Best wishes,
> Vann Joe
> (amateur)
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of klarinet Digest
> ***********************************
>
>

--
Hartmut Gehrke-Tschudi * Globalisierung ist nichts Anderes, als
hgtschudi@-----.de > * die wirtschaftliche Knebelung der
Bochum * Schwachen und Armen zum Nutzen
BRD * der Grossen und Starken.
*

------------------------------------------------------------------