Klarinet Archive - Posting 000057.txt from 2007/05
From: "Christophe ASTIER" <christophe.astier@-----.fr>
Subj: Re: [kl] SV: Orff, Wagner and Nazi's
Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 10:45:34 -0400
Hindemith was not Jewish, but his wife was.
Depsite which he emigrated only in 1938.
Ch.
----- Original Message -----
From: "dnleeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
To: <klarinet@-----.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 5:07 PM
Subject: RE: [kl] SV: Orff, Wagner and Nazi's
Not that I know of. He was just a humanist who objected to the Nazi
ideology.
Dan Leeson
DNLeeson@-----.net
-----Original Message-----
From: kurtheisig@-----.net]
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 10:50 PM
To: klarinet@-----.org
Subject: RE: [kl] SV: Orff, Wagner and Nazi's
Danny,
Was Hindemith Jewish?
Kurt
-----Original Message-----
>From: dnleeson <dnleeson@-----.net>
>Sent: May 7, 2007 12:51 PM
>To: klarinet@-----.org
>Subject: RE: [kl] SV: Orff, Wagner and Nazi's
>
>I had no argument with the Orff question. I only addressed
>Paolo's statement that Wanger never preached violence. So you are
>preaching to the converted when you defend Orff. I think only
>that his music is shallow.
>
>Your reference to Bruno Walter leaving Germany rather than deal
>with the Nazis is way off base. Walter was Jewish and he was
>lucky to have escaped with his life.
>
>Dan Leeson
>DNLeeson@-----.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Fred Jacobowitz [mailto:fbjacobo@-----.net]
>Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 6:35 AM
>To: klarinet@-----.org
>Subject: Re: [kl] SV: Orff, Wagner and Nazi's
>
>
>Dan,
> As I remember reading, Orff was an opportunist with a very
>minimal set
>of morals. He joined the Nazi party for the same reason many
>Russians
>joined the Communist party: to get ahead. While other artists
>such as
>Bruno Walter and Paul Hindemith left rather than deal with the
>Nazis,
>he stayed and prospered. I have not heard that he had anything to
>do
>with murders and deportations, etc. or that he was an ardent flag
>waver, but he was willing to benefit from the artistic vacuum
>created
>by the departure of the leading artistic lights. This in itself
>earned
>him the scorn and derision of the musical world. After the war,
>he was
>spurned by the musical community. By contrast, Strauss was an old
>man
>and by some accounts, not all there mentally. Even he finally
>broke
>with the Nazis when they banned Mozart's music.
>
>Fred Jacobowitz
>
>Kol Haruach Klezmer Band
>Ebony and Ivory Duo
>On May 7, 2007, at 10:19 AM, Curtis Bennett wrote:
>
>> Dan - this thread started with regard to Orff. Is there
>anything on
>> the background of Orff as it pertains to the Nazis?
>>
>> On 5/7/07, dnleeson <dnleeson@-----.net> wrote:
>>> It is an exercize in futility to argue if Wagner would have
>>> behaved similiarly during the Nazi regime. There is no way to
>>> conclude on that attempt at a historical contrast.
>>>
>>> But, Paolo Leva is incorrect when he wrote: "[Wagner] never
>>> preached violence in a way even close to what Nazi did." That
>is
>>> not the case.
>>>
>>> Wagner explcitly offered a proposal that all Jews should be
>>> forced to commit suicide during a performance of "Isaac the
>>> Wise." That was a play that had become popular during that
>period
>>> in which the character of the Jew, Isaac, was shown in a
>>> non-demonizing way.
>>>
>>> That attitude can be seen in no other light thatn preaching
>>> violence.
>>>
>>> And while antisemitism was a plague then (and is to, perhaps,
>an
>>> ever greater degree of a plague today in the Muslim world),
>>> Wagner was the only composer who incorporated his hatred as
>part
>>> and parcel of his music dramas. He disguised his bigotry
>because
>>> he did not want his operas to be seen as political pamphlets,
>but
>>> his greatest masterpieces, "Meistersinger," three of the four
>>> operas in "The Ring," and others, are rife with his toxic
>>> thinking.
>>>
>>> Dan Leeson
>>> DNLeeson@-----.net
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Paolo Leva [mailto:paolo.leva@-----.se]
>>> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 2:34 AM
>>> To: klarinet@-----.org
>>> Subject: [kl] SV: Orff, Wagner and Nazi's
>>>
>>>
>>> I feel the need to enter this debate and underline the
>>> crucial difference between composers who consciously
>>> served the abominous Nazi regime, and composers who
>>> have been (ab)used by that regime.
>>>
>>> No secret that Wagner was antisemite and generally
>>> behaving chaotically in his private and political
>>> life, but we cannot assume that if he'd known Hitler
>>> and the Nazi he would have supported them. After all
>>> he deeply was a humanist and, as long as I know, he
>>> never preached violence in a way even close to what
>>> Nazi did. We should also remember that he fought with
>>> the left activists in Dresden against the regime, in
>>> protest to the fact that the parlament had been
>>> dismissed by the king. For what we know, Wagner might
>>> as well turned out to be a fierce opponent of Nazism.
>>>
>>> We'll never have answer to this question, this is what
>>> makes Wagner so very very different from Orff. We are
>>> all entitled of disliking Wagner, his music and his
>>> ideas, but considering him a supporter of Nazism and
>>> associating him with people like Orff is false from an
>>> historical point of view.
>>>
>>> Once Wagner wrote that he could not think as clear in
>>> his private and political life as he could do in his
>>> artistic work. This seems to me to be a very good
>>> picture of this man.
>>>
>>> //Paolo
>>>
>>>
>>> > Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 00:37:11 +0200
>>> > To: "klarinetlijst" <klarinet@-----.org>
>>> > From: "Rien Stein" <rstein@-----.nl>
>>> > Subject: Orff, Wagner and Nazi's
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> > <001901c7902f$16c83270$6402a8c0@rien94hk64swup>
>>> >
>>> > My father was a great admirer of Carl Orff's music,
>>> > especially the Carmina
>>> > Burana. He was half Jewish, and did not know mauch
>>> > about Orff. My
>>> > grandfather was an (amateur) expert on Wagner: after
>>> > three notes he
>>> > recognized him, which opera, in which scene, and as
>>> > far as I know was always
>>> > correct, even if it concerned such an (at least in
>>> > the first half of the
>>> > previous century) unknown work as say Rienzi. My
>>> > grandfather possessed the
>>> > complete writngs of Richard Wagner, and that
>>> > includes not only his opera
>>> > texts, but also what he wrote else on theoretical
>>> > issues and so on. Writings
>>> > I felt troubled of. Thanks to Dan Leeson I now
>>> > understand it was the
>>> > antisemitical background of this man. To me that was
>>> > a good enough reason to
>>> > become interested in the attitude of many German and
>>> > Austrian composers
>>> > towards Hitler and his bent.
>>> >
>>> > I decided not to listen to, nor to play, music
>>> > composed by some composers:
>>> > Wagner and the in my opinion much lesser composer
>>> > Orff. Strauss indeed was a
>>> > stupid fellow, not really understanding what was
>>> > going on, but Orff was
>>> > aware off it all! He was not the composer of such
>>> > really badly intended
>>> > trash as Horst Wessel wrote, but he should have
>>> > known better! Actually he
>>> > knew better, but was indifferent to it, as far as I
>>> > know.
>>> >
>>> > I assume Dan Leeson refused to play music written by
>>> > Wagner and Orff, and
>>> > some other composers as well?
>>> >
>>> > Rien
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> kalender. Dessutom 250 MB gratis, virusscanning och antispam.
>FÃ¥
>>> den på: http://se.mail.yahoo.com
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Curtis Bennett
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>---
>>
>
>
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