Klarinet Archive - Posting 000051.txt from 2007/05

From: "dnleeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
Subj: RE: [kl] SV: Orff, Wagner and Nazi's
Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 12:51:45 -0400

Not that I know of. Orff was simply an oportunist, figuring to
use the Nazi politics to improve his career.

Dan Leeson
DNLeeson@-----.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Curtis Bennett [mailto:curtis.bennett@-----.com]
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 6:19 AM
To: klarinet@-----.org
Subject: Re: [kl] SV: Orff, Wagner and Nazi's

Dan - this thread started with regard to Orff. Is there anything
on
the background of Orff as it pertains to the Nazis?

On 5/7/07, dnleeson <dnleeson@-----.net> wrote:
> It is an exercize in futility to argue if Wagner would have
> behaved similiarly during the Nazi regime. There is no way to
> conclude on that attempt at a historical contrast.
>
> But, Paolo Leva is incorrect when he wrote: "[Wagner] never
> preached violence in a way even close to what Nazi did." That
is
> not the case.
>
> Wagner explcitly offered a proposal that all Jews should be
> forced to commit suicide during a performance of "Isaac the
> Wise." That was a play that had become popular during that
period
> in which the character of the Jew, Isaac, was shown in a
> non-demonizing way.
>
> That attitude can be seen in no other light thatn preaching
> violence.
>
> And while antisemitism was a plague then (and is to, perhaps,
an
> ever greater degree of a plague today in the Muslim world),
> Wagner was the only composer who incorporated his hatred as
part
> and parcel of his music dramas. He disguised his bigotry
because
> he did not want his operas to be seen as political pamphlets,
but
> his greatest masterpieces, "Meistersinger," three of the four
> operas in "The Ring," and others, are rife with his toxic
> thinking.
>
> Dan Leeson
> DNLeeson@-----.net
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paolo Leva [mailto:paolo.leva@-----.se]
> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 2:34 AM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: [kl] SV: Orff, Wagner and Nazi's
>
>
> I feel the need to enter this debate and underline the
> crucial difference between composers who consciously
> served the abominous Nazi regime, and composers who
> have been (ab)used by that regime.
>
> No secret that Wagner was antisemite and generally
> behaving chaotically in his private and political
> life, but we cannot assume that if he'd known Hitler
> and the Nazi he would have supported them. After all
> he deeply was a humanist and, as long as I know, he
> never preached violence in a way even close to what
> Nazi did. We should also remember that he fought with
> the left activists in Dresden against the regime, in
> protest to the fact that the parlament had been
> dismissed by the king. For what we know, Wagner might
> as well turned out to be a fierce opponent of Nazism.
>
> We'll never have answer to this question, this is what
> makes Wagner so very very different from Orff. We are
> all entitled of disliking Wagner, his music and his
> ideas, but considering him a supporter of Nazism and
> associating him with people like Orff is false from an
> historical point of view.
>
> Once Wagner wrote that he could not think as clear in
> his private and political life as he could do in his
> artistic work. This seems to me to be a very good
> picture of this man.
>
> //Paolo
>
>
> > Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 00:37:11 +0200
> > To: "klarinetlijst" <klarinet@-----.org>
> > From: "Rien Stein" <rstein@-----.nl>
> > Subject: Orff, Wagner and Nazi's
> > Message-ID:
> > <001901c7902f$16c83270$6402a8c0@rien94hk64swup>
> >
> > My father was a great admirer of Carl Orff's music,
> > especially the Carmina
> > Burana. He was half Jewish, and did not know mauch
> > about Orff. My
> > grandfather was an (amateur) expert on Wagner: after
> > three notes he
> > recognized him, which opera, in which scene, and as
> > far as I know was always
> > correct, even if it concerned such an (at least in
> > the first half of the
> > previous century) unknown work as say Rienzi. My
> > grandfather possessed the
> > complete writngs of Richard Wagner, and that
> > includes not only his opera
> > texts, but also what he wrote else on theoretical
> > issues and so on. Writings
> > I felt troubled of. Thanks to Dan Leeson I now
> > understand it was the
> > antisemitical background of this man. To me that was
> > a good enough reason to
> > become interested in the attitude of many German and
> > Austrian composers
> > towards Hitler and his bent.
> >
> > I decided not to listen to, nor to play, music
> > composed by some composers:
> > Wagner and the in my opinion much lesser composer
> > Orff. Strauss indeed was a
> > stupid fellow, not really understanding what was
> > going on, but Orff was
> > aware off it all! He was not the composer of such
> > really badly intended
> > trash as Horst Wessel wrote, but he should have
> > known better! Actually he
> > knew better, but was indifferent to it, as far as I
> > know.
> >
> > I assume Dan Leeson refused to play music written by
> > Wagner and Orff, and
> > some other composers as well?
> >
> > Rien
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> kalender. Dessutom 250 MB gratis, virusscanning och antispam.
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>
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>
>

--
Curtis Bennett

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