Klarinet Archive - Posting 000071.txt from 2007/03

From: "dnleeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
Subj: RE: [kl] orchestral sounds
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 18:33:54 -0500

That was a long reply to a simple question.

The assertion was made that (a) there is a unique VPO sound, and
(b) it is caused by the fact that the VPO is all male.

The second reason has no substance. It's the worst kind of
sexism used to support a questionable thesis; i.e., a woman could
not be president of the US because her monthly periods make her
too emotional.

The first assertion has no support, except that many have said,
"But I can hear the difference," or "My friends can hear the
difference," or "My uncle hears the difference," as any of this
is evidence.

If one can hear the difference, it certainly should not be too
much of an effort to explain the precise nature of that
difference. And so far, no one has.

Stop broadening the question. It is a simple one. What is
unique about the VPO sound?

I'm being disingenuous because I don't expect a rational answer
to what is a personal perspective. But that does not mean that
the perspective is true.

It's just like "dark sound." Everybody talks about it, everyone
seeks it out. No one can describe what it is. It is a terrible
thing to express to a young student:

Teacher: "Your sound is not dark enough."

Student: "How do I get it dark enough?"

Teacher: "Keep working at it. You'll know when you have it.

Bottom line: there is a lot of that kind of nonsence in the music
business, and the VPO unique sound is just another example.

This does not mean that the person expressing that idea is
conning us. On the contrary, he or she hears a difference.
There is nothing wrong with that. It is when that opinion is
elevated to the level of a physical principle, that I get all
woozy.

Dan Leeson
DNLeeson@-----.net

-----Original Message-----
From: colin.touchin@-----.com
[mailto:colin.touchin@-----.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:43 PM
To: klarinet@-----.org
Subject: [kl] orchestral sounds

Well, Dan (if I may?), your own ears must have heard differences
between
orchestral tone/style/manner so you're partly winding us up, of
course.
What you ask for may not be possible, that is: language
description of
sensations which are purely musical impressions, and may not be
capable
of sufficiently precise labels for other listeners to
share/agree/disagree
about the experiences at issue. There may well be measurable
differences
using scientific equipment and numbers in certain scales and
parameters.
But noone surely can deny that these differences exist however
they be
measured/described? Why they exist, whether they exist
throughout
centuries or happen at particular times in the development of
ensembles
and managements and conductors is another point of direct
relevance.

In the 70's I used to play several recorded orchestral samples in
lectures,
asking students to identify the nationality of the orchestra
playing (the same
work) - more than chance identified French, German and US/UK
correctly.
I would say that this test done today with contemporary
recordings would
not be so successful, because I believe the international
exchange of
recordings, broadcasts and touring ensembles has increased
exposure to
more possible sounds and equally limited the variation of those
sounds.
Listen for an obvious example to French horns in Russian
orchestras upto
about the mid-80's and many display a significant vibrato. After
this time it
was possible to hear non-vibrato French horns in Russia.
In England our fine Simon Rattle and the City of Birmingham
Symphony
Orchestra uniquely developed abilities to play French music with
a French
style and timbre, and German with German, English with English,
etc. -
adapting their quality of production to suit the composers'
likely intentions.
Many orchestras use one general style and tone for almost all
they play (it
saves rehearsal time!).
Interestingly the most French sound I have on disc seems to be
The Berlin
Phil with Pierre Boulez in Debussy - the greatest conductor and
orchestra
exploring the nuances of harmony and texture throughout refined
instrumental resources to create magical colours and effects.
And also
dispelling the notion that that orchestra produce always one
sound; but it
takes a master craftsman at the podium to make changes, to have
the
knowledge and skill to mould the players' skills towards a
composer's
imagination.
OK, so what is it that makes it French? - clarity of individual
lines, balance
and blend of string textures, projection of certain wind colours
inside
chords, etc. No description of the attributes, agreed, but
pointers to the
areas in which my ear hears distinct differences from any other
recording or
performance of the same piece. Further, the way accent and
tenuto are
employed on individual notes at the starts and in the peaks of
phrases to
show specific shape, different again from more prosaic readings.
This in
wind terms done with carefully controlled breath, emphasis, decay
of
sound, and in string terms, in bow weight, speed and pressure.
One can analyse momentary sounds, measuring and weighing their
timbral
and textural make-up; one can analyse the additive effect
successive
sounds create; and one can then compare these with other
performances of
the same piece. Ultimately it is, inevitably, personal
preference based on
our own experiences, of what seems to match our expectation and
understanding of the style and sound of French, German, Italian,
Russian
sounds, etc. and all that pre-supposes we can access our personal
life's
memories of sounds we have heard and made in the pursuit of
musical
understanding and imaginative development.
That area connects with the other list discussion of gender: we
all of us are
the result of our education and opportunity: different countries
train and
prepare musicians in different ways - there are different
expectations in
bowing, blowing, creating and re-creating sounds. Some countries
are very
traditionally founded in their conservatoires and orchestral
profession and
until the international influence of equality and integration
reaches every
area from infant school through to adulthood, these differences
will
continue to exist. Some of the results of this training will be
audible,
because the performers cannot help but play in that tradition or
with that
style of the colleagues surrounding them in those ensembles; and
those
auditioning for new members of those ensembles will
understandably listen
out for candidates who most nearly match the current sound, and
will need
less adaptation time to become integrated.
Didn't Groucho Marx say something about membership of clubs?
Best wishes, Colin Touchin.

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