Klarinet Archive - Posting 000044.txt from 2007/03

From: "dnleeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
Subj: RE: [kl] An interesting point of view
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 10:00:30 -0500

An orchestra is exactly and only that. The brass in Chicago are
no different than the brass in Seattle. The strings in Vienna
are no different than the strings in Philadelphia, this despite
the hype of news media.

The idea of giving and orchestra a particular personality is
media doublespeak. It sells records and newspapers.

But to answer your specific question, at the level of the fully
professional orchestra, I reject the idea that any of them are
capable of having their own unique sound. And if you disagree,
you are going to have to be specific and precise to be
convincing.

Specifically, exactly (EXACTLY!!) how is the "sound" of the VPO
unique. No Madison avernue talk, please. Be precise. Often, in
the music world., that is the laslt way to explain anything.

If you can't make that explanation in plain, ordinary English,
then Madison Avenue has you by the short hairs and convinced you
that what is absurd is something true.

Is that responsivle enough?

Dan Leeson
DNLeeson@-----.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Baxter [mailto:martinbaxter@-----.net]
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 1:42 AM
To: klarinet@-----.org
Subject: Re: [kl] An interesting point of view

Mr. Leeson
As I have never met you I await yourr permission to call you Dan.
Do I understand from this that it is your opinion that an
orchestra
cannot have its "own sound", or have I misunderstood your
letter.
Martin
On 3 Mar 2007, at 15:48, dnleeson wrote:

> Danyel, your point of view is one that I cannot understand
> because I do not believe the underlying technical assumption is
> correct. That underlying idea says that the Vienna
Philharmonic
> has a unique sound, one measureably different from any other
> orchestra, and that the sound has something to do with a male
> characteristic.
>
> My disagreement has to do with the very idea of a nationalistic
> sound. It is one that I have never agreed with either with
> individual instruments (a very few exceptions exist such as the
> distinctive French bassoon sound), or with orchestras as a
whole.
>
> In exactly what way does the VPO sound differently from, say
the
> Icelandic Philharmonic, the Hong Kong Symphony orchestra, or
the
> Berlin Philharmonic? And in what way does the fact that the
VPO
> is entirely male (except for the harpist) cause that phenomenon
> to occur?
>
> Some years ago we had a lengthy discussion of the German sound,
> French sound, and American sound in clarinet playing; i.e., it
> was possible to tell if a player was trained in Germany or
France
> or anyplace elese, just by listening to them. People believed
> that it was possible to tell if the clarinet section was made
up
> of Germans. I believed then and do now that this is an entirely
> fictitious argument, as equally unfounded as the one you
> expressed, namely that the VPO sound is unique and special, and
> that this special sound is derived from the orchestra's all
male
> character.
>
>
>
> Dan Leeson
> DNLeeson@-----.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: danyel [mailto:rab@-----.de]
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 7:56 PM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: Re: [kl] An interesting point of view
>
>
> Thanks for posting this. The point has indeed been made before,
> it is
> interesting because it reflects the tendency to ignore
aesthetic
> and
> historic peculiarities or maybe eccentricities in favour of a
PC
> dogma of
> rather dubious motivation. People (in particular in the US)
> simply expect
> other people to adopt their attitudes, like non smokers chasing
> smokers out
> of public places, or Muslims who think other religions (like
> christianity)
> are rubbish. There might be very little to be said in favour of
> smoking or
> christianity, however music is something else. In traditional
> cultures it is
> considered normal that certain music is played by men, other by
> women. They
> rarely mix in performance; never, as far as I know, in art or
> ritual music
> except for vocalists. Why? These cultures are not entirely bad,
> let alone
> the modern society entirely good. And their music was,
generally,
> far
> superior to our's.
> Has anybody asked himself (or herself, of course) why the
Vienna
> Philharmonic has retained at least some of its unique sound and
> aura? I
> myself really do like women in all sorts of capacities (most of
> my disciples
> are female and people with whom I share corporal intimacy are
> exclusively
> female, no demands by journalists or activists will ever change
> that!) yet
> it smacks awkward if what might well be the only at least
> semi-authentic
> 19th c. orchestra remaining today as a sort of symphony-museum
or
> 'Mahler-World' or whatever, should comply with demands made by
> outsiders who
> know nothing about the inner workings of this wonderful
> socio-aesthetic
> organism (they might as well demand to get rid of the old
> fashioned dress
> suit and to wear short pants and t-shirts on the podium; but
the
> dress suit
> is another aspect of 19th c. European life style without which
> the music
> loses its substrate).
> Yes, I do insinuate that the V Ph might sound so great because
> there are
> very few if any women in their ranks. I don't know why that
> should be so,
> but it is conceivable to me that 19th c. Austro-German music,
in
> order to be
> properly played, requires a specifically male sort of neurotic
> character. Of
> course this resembles the question whether people of
non-African
> heritage
> can play blues, or goyim can play klezmer. It mostly (very rare
> exceptions)
> is a mere travesty if they do. Why? because they have different
> backgrounds,
> different character structures. Until they lose it and fuse
with
> the
> mainstream. In this case we will probably end up, like in Jazz,
> with the
> original people (African Americans in Jazz, males in
> Austro-German 19th c.
> music) losing the "feeling" for the music too and nobody
remains
> to play it
> authentically, i.e. with proper 'gusto'. This has happened with
> almost all
> symphonic organisations as far as I can tell (especially those
> mentioned in
> the article as examples of flexibility), hence gender doesn't
> matter any
> more with those. They could hire robots or mp3 players, it
> wouldn't make
> much of a difference.
> As I stated before, I really can't understand (honestly, it's a
> mystery to
> me!) how people can be so naive to believe it was proper to use
a
> modern
> Oehler or even Boehm clarinet for Mozart or Weber, and to me it
> appears as
> equally ahistoric, i.e. plain wrong, if women perform in the
> Vienna
> Philharmonic. Sure, the V. Ph. could change, become up to date
> (provided
> they'd play modern music), but please, don't! If anything,
change
> back to
> the sound you had under Bruno Walter, but please, please, don't
> change to
> become just another professional, modern, versatile, amusing,
> p.c. and
> totally sterile orchestra. We have enough of these.
>
> Dan, I know you are probably either going to respond with
insults
> or not at
> all, but if you would consider to point out what exactly your
> view is in
> this context, I'd appreciate.
>
> Best wishes,
> danyel
>
> www.echoton.de/clar.html
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dnleeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
> To: "klarinet@-----.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 6:25 PM
> Subject: [kl] An interesting point of view
>
>
>> The following well-written article by Justin Davidson appeared
> in
>> Newsday quite recently. It may be seen directly using the
>> following link: http://tinyurl.com/2hsazt. This topic,
>> continuing and ongoing sexism of the Vienna Philharmonic, has
>> been discussed on this list several times, but Davidson's
>> position pretty much says, "Time's up, fellows. Get moving or
> get
>> out."
>>
>> Dan Leeson
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>
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