Klarinet Archive - Posting 000041.txt from 2007/03

From: Martin Baxter <martinbaxter@-----.net>
Subj: Re: [kl] An interesting point of view
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 04:42:18 -0500

Mr. Leeson
As I have never met you I await yourr permission to call you Dan.
Do I understand from this that it is your opinion that an orchestra
cannot have its "own sound", or have I misunderstood your letter.
Martin
On 3 Mar 2007, at 15:48, dnleeson wrote:

> Danyel, your point of view is one that I cannot understand
> because I do not believe the underlying technical assumption is
> correct. That underlying idea says that the Vienna Philharmonic
> has a unique sound, one measureably different from any other
> orchestra, and that the sound has something to do with a male
> characteristic.
>
> My disagreement has to do with the very idea of a nationalistic
> sound. It is one that I have never agreed with either with
> individual instruments (a very few exceptions exist such as the
> distinctive French bassoon sound), or with orchestras as a whole.
>
> In exactly what way does the VPO sound differently from, say the
> Icelandic Philharmonic, the Hong Kong Symphony orchestra, or the
> Berlin Philharmonic? And in what way does the fact that the VPO
> is entirely male (except for the harpist) cause that phenomenon
> to occur?
>
> Some years ago we had a lengthy discussion of the German sound,
> French sound, and American sound in clarinet playing; i.e., it
> was possible to tell if a player was trained in Germany or France
> or anyplace elese, just by listening to them. People believed
> that it was possible to tell if the clarinet section was made up
> of Germans. I believed then and do now that this is an entirely
> fictitious argument, as equally unfounded as the one you
> expressed, namely that the VPO sound is unique and special, and
> that this special sound is derived from the orchestra's all male
> character.
>
>
>
> Dan Leeson
> DNLeeson@-----.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: danyel [mailto:rab@-----.de]
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 7:56 PM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: Re: [kl] An interesting point of view
>
>
> Thanks for posting this. The point has indeed been made before,
> it is
> interesting because it reflects the tendency to ignore aesthetic
> and
> historic peculiarities or maybe eccentricities in favour of a PC
> dogma of
> rather dubious motivation. People (in particular in the US)
> simply expect
> other people to adopt their attitudes, like non smokers chasing
> smokers out
> of public places, or Muslims who think other religions (like
> christianity)
> are rubbish. There might be very little to be said in favour of
> smoking or
> christianity, however music is something else. In traditional
> cultures it is
> considered normal that certain music is played by men, other by
> women. They
> rarely mix in performance; never, as far as I know, in art or
> ritual music
> except for vocalists. Why? These cultures are not entirely bad,
> let alone
> the modern society entirely good. And their music was, generally,
> far
> superior to our's.
> Has anybody asked himself (or herself, of course) why the Vienna
> Philharmonic has retained at least some of its unique sound and
> aura? I
> myself really do like women in all sorts of capacities (most of
> my disciples
> are female and people with whom I share corporal intimacy are
> exclusively
> female, no demands by journalists or activists will ever change
> that!) yet
> it smacks awkward if what might well be the only at least
> semi-authentic
> 19th c. orchestra remaining today as a sort of symphony-museum or
> 'Mahler-World' or whatever, should comply with demands made by
> outsiders who
> know nothing about the inner workings of this wonderful
> socio-aesthetic
> organism (they might as well demand to get rid of the old
> fashioned dress
> suit and to wear short pants and t-shirts on the podium; but the
> dress suit
> is another aspect of 19th c. European life style without which
> the music
> loses its substrate).
> Yes, I do insinuate that the V Ph might sound so great because
> there are
> very few if any women in their ranks. I don't know why that
> should be so,
> but it is conceivable to me that 19th c. Austro-German music, in
> order to be
> properly played, requires a specifically male sort of neurotic
> character. Of
> course this resembles the question whether people of non-African
> heritage
> can play blues, or goyim can play klezmer. It mostly (very rare
> exceptions)
> is a mere travesty if they do. Why? because they have different
> backgrounds,
> different character structures. Until they lose it and fuse with
> the
> mainstream. In this case we will probably end up, like in Jazz,
> with the
> original people (African Americans in Jazz, males in
> Austro-German 19th c.
> music) losing the "feeling" for the music too and nobody remains
> to play it
> authentically, i.e. with proper 'gusto'. This has happened with
> almost all
> symphonic organisations as far as I can tell (especially those
> mentioned in
> the article as examples of flexibility), hence gender doesn't
> matter any
> more with those. They could hire robots or mp3 players, it
> wouldn't make
> much of a difference.
> As I stated before, I really can't understand (honestly, it's a
> mystery to
> me!) how people can be so naive to believe it was proper to use a
> modern
> Oehler or even Boehm clarinet for Mozart or Weber, and to me it
> appears as
> equally ahistoric, i.e. plain wrong, if women perform in the
> Vienna
> Philharmonic. Sure, the V. Ph. could change, become up to date
> (provided
> they'd play modern music), but please, don't! If anything, change
> back to
> the sound you had under Bruno Walter, but please, please, don't
> change to
> become just another professional, modern, versatile, amusing,
> p.c. and
> totally sterile orchestra. We have enough of these.
>
> Dan, I know you are probably either going to respond with insults
> or not at
> all, but if you would consider to point out what exactly your
> view is in
> this context, I'd appreciate.
>
> Best wishes,
> danyel
>
> www.echoton.de/clar.html
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dnleeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
> To: "klarinet@-----.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 6:25 PM
> Subject: [kl] An interesting point of view
>
>
>> The following well-written article by Justin Davidson appeared
> in
>> Newsday quite recently. It may be seen directly using the
>> following link: http://tinyurl.com/2hsazt. This topic,
>> continuing and ongoing sexism of the Vienna Philharmonic, has
>> been discussed on this list several times, but Davidson's
>> position pretty much says, "Time's up, fellows. Get moving or
> get
>> out."
>>
>> Dan Leeson
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>
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