Klarinet Archive - Posting 000028.txt from 2007/03

From: clarni bass <clarnibass@-----.com>
Subj: Re: [kl] Re: klarinet Digest
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 15:23:45 -0500

Some parts in this post I couldn't even be sure if
they were a joke or serious. Assuming they were
serious, it's definitely the most racist post I've
seen on the list.

Are you seriously suggesting that such opinions don't
exist outside Europe, and this based on one post on
this list? What is the enlightened country you are
from...? I'm sure all Europeans (and I) would like to
learn your ways so we can improve our primitive
thinking....

--- Jeff Albrecht <jeffn8wr@-----.net> wrote:

> Danyel, I don't know if Dan will reply to your post,
> but I certainly feel the
> need to address your statements. Your position that
> only "certain" members can
> play various types of music authentically, merely
> based on their race, gender
> or ethnicity, smacks of racism and sexism. It is
> disheartening -but not
> totally unexpected- that such attitudes still
> prevail in Europe. After all,
> Europe seems to be raising a fine new generation of
> racists and bigots these
> days. I would, however, suggest that those with an
> appreciation for fine
> classical music check their prejudices at the door,
> and leave the nonsensical
> bigotry to the skinheads marching in the streets,
> rather than the so-called
> gentility within the concert halls. To imply that
> women are somehow incapable
> of producing the quality of sound required to do
> justice to this type of music
> is ludicrous and arrogant.
>
> In the not-so-distant past, Austria was father to an
> individual who had
> similar, if more extreme, beliefs along these lines,
> and millions of innocent
> people were murdered before the civilized world said
> "ENOUGH!" I had hoped
> that central Europe would have progressed beyond
> those dark days, but it
> appears that prejudice and discrimination are alive
> and well in Wien. Schade.
>
> Jeff Albrecht (Yes, I am of Germanic ancestry, but I
> have outgrown such
> primitive beliefs.)
>
> To: <klarinet@-----.org>
> > From: "danyel" <rab@-----.de>
> > Subject: Re: [kl] An interesting point of view
> > Message-ID:
> <005001c75d47$e059ef40$5d14fea9@oemm4rt5ad1159>
> >
> > Thanks for posting this. The point has indeed been
> made before, it is
> > interesting because it reflects the tendency to
> ignore aesthetic and
> > historic peculiarities or maybe eccentricities in
> favour of a PC dogma of
> > rather dubious motivation. People (in particular
> in the US) simply expect
> > other people to adopt their attitudes, like non
> smokers chasing smokers out
> > of public places, or Muslims who think other
> religions (like christianity)
> > are rubbish. There might be very little to be said
> in favour of smoking or
> > christianity, however music is something else. In
> traditional cultures it is
> > considered normal that certain music is played by
> men, other by women. They
> > rarely mix in performance; never, as far as I
> know, in art or ritual music
> > except for vocalists. Why? These cultures are not
> entirely bad, let alone
> > the modern society entirely good. And their music
> was, generally, far
> > superior to our's.
> > Has anybody asked himself (or herself, of course)
> why the Vienna
> > Philharmonic has retained at least some of its
> unique sound and aura? I
> > myself really do like women in all sorts of
> capacities (most of my disciples
> > are female and people with whom I share corporal
> intimacy are exclusively
> > female, no demands by journalists or activists
> will ever change that!) yet
> > it smacks awkward if what might well be the only
> at least semi-authentic
> > 19th c. orchestra remaining today as a sort of
> symphony-museum or
> > 'Mahler-World' or whatever, should comply with
> demands made by outsiders who
> > know nothing about the inner workings of this
> wonderful socio-aesthetic
> > organism (they might as well demand to get rid of
> the old fashioned dress
> > suit and to wear short pants and t-shirts on the
> podium; but the dress suit
> > is another aspect of 19th c. European life style
> without which the music
> > loses its substrate).
> > Yes, I do insinuate that the V Ph might sound so
> great because there are
> > very few if any women in their ranks. I don't know
> why that should be so,
> > but it is conceivable to me that 19th c.
> Austro-German music, in order to be
> > properly played, requires a specifically male sort
> of neurotic character. Of
> > course this resembles the question whether people
> of non-African heritage
> > can play blues, or goyim can play klezmer. It
> mostly (very rare exceptions)
> > is a mere travesty if they do. Why? because they
> have different backgrounds,
> > different character structures. Until they lose it
> and fuse with the
> > mainstream. In this case we will probably end up,
> like in Jazz, with the
> > original people (African Americans in Jazz, males
> in Austro-German 19th c.
> > music) losing the "feeling" for the music too and
> nobody remains to play it
> > authentically, i.e. with proper 'gusto'. This has
> happened with almost all
> > symphonic organisations as far as I can tell
> (especially those mentioned in
> > the article as examples of flexibility), hence
> gender doesn't matter any
> > more with those. They could hire robots or mp3
> players, it wouldn't make
> > much of a difference.
> > As I stated before, I really can't understand
> (honestly, it's a mystery to
> > me!) how people can be so naive to believe it was
> proper to use a modern
> > Oehler or even Boehm clarinet for Mozart or Weber,
> and to me it appears as
> > equally ahistoric, i.e. plain wrong, if women
> perform in the Vienna
> > Philharmonic. Sure, the V. Ph. could change,
> become up to date (provided
> > they'd play modern music), but please, don't! If
> anything, change back to
> > the sound you had under Bruno Walter, but please,
> please, don't change to
> > become just another professional, modern,
> versatile, amusing, p.c. and
> > totally sterile orchestra. We have enough of
> these.
> >
> > Dan, I know you are probably either going to
> respond with insults or not at
> > all, but if you would consider to point out what
> exactly your view is in
> > this context, I'd appreciate.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > danyel
> >
> > www.echoton.de/clar.html
>
>
>
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