Klarinet Archive - Posting 000521.txt from 2006/03

From: Laurence Beckhardt <lbeckhardt@-----.net>
Subj: RE: [kl] Transposed Parts
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 23:11:07 -0500

Can anyone explain the Italian tradition, until well
into the 20th Century I'm told, of playing all
orchestral and opera clarinet parts on the Bb
clarinet? Was this done out of sheer arrogance?
Poverty? Machismo (who's the best transposer)?

Do we know what Italian composers thought about the
practice? Did Verdi, Rossini, Donizetti, Bellini
care?

Finally, is that Italian tradition really true, or
just an urban legend?

--- Doug Potter <doug@-----.net> wrote:

> Dan, I'm sure we could find a way to agree less :).
>
> Let me see if I can get this right. What you're
> saying is that we should
> play what the composer wanted - and should not have
> the arrogance to assume
> the composer was stupid or that we know better than
> the composer. And that
> we shouldn't automatically hold non-professionals to
> different standards
> than professionals.
>
> What I'm trying to say is that we do what we can
> with what we have. I'm
> happy to know that C clarinets exist - and can even
> imagine that it be nice
> to own one. But given no one pays me to play (and
> so can't fire me) and the
> slight call for C clarinet parts, I can't justify to
> myself the purchase of
> a C clarinet on the household budget. If I had a C
> clarinet, I would
> certainly use it to play the sections that called
> for it. I'm sure I
> remember someone on this list saying almost exactly
> this same thing -
> although that may have been about an A clarinet.
>
> And yes, we can hold professionals to higher
> standards. I expect them to
> know more. They studied music in college - theory,
> composers, styles, etc.
> I didn't. I'm interested enough to learn more - I
> have learned more. But I
> hope people who do this for a living know a lot more
> than I do.
>
> As Adam so nicely points out, we can't know exactly
> what the composer
> wanted. Even if we ask them (which we may be able
> to do if they're living),
> human language can't completely convey what they
> wanted. And if they could
> convey exactly what they wanted, would we want every
> performance to sound
> the same exact way? I think performance is a
> compromise between what the
> composer specifies and what we play. We obviously
> can't completely ignore
> the composer any more than we can exactly match what
> they wanted. Are we to
> avoid playing K622 because we don't have a bassett
> clarinet? (I'm pleased to
> know the difference between a bassett clarinet and a
> bassett horn.)
>
> In the Smetana, the specified clarinet is always
> closest to the current key.
> Did he put any more thought into it than that? I
> don't know - and wonder
> whether we have any way of knowing. That is not the
> case for the Dvorak,
> where he specifies Bb only when the key signature
> would otherwise be six (or
> is it five?) flats or more.
>
> And I'm still looking for that Bb transcription.
>
> Doug
> http://ConicWave.net
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adam Michlin [mailto:amichlin@-----.com]
> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 5:54 PM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: RE: [kl] Transposed Parts
>
> Given that most, if not all, pre-20th century choice
> of pitched
> clarinet was dictated by the key of the composition,
> I'm not clear as
> to what sin players are committing by substitution.
> I suppose the
> argument could be made that the composer, having
> chosen the pitch of
> clarinet based on the key of the piece, was
> consciously aware of the
> individual sound characteristics. This, however,
> seems as impossible
> to discover as figuring out whether Mozart would
> have preferred to
> use a Contra Bassoon in the Gran Partita if only he
> had had the
> opportunity. Speculation, speculation, speculation.
>
> Also, using the same slippery slope logic of
> substituting a tenor
> saxophone for a clarinet, if we insist that C
> Clarinet parts
> absolutely must be played on C clarinets, why should
> it not follow
> that we are committing a musical sin to play such
> parts on a *modern*
> C clarinet? Next you know people will insist that
> the music can only
> be played on the exact clarinet that premiered the
> music in 18xx.
> Even worse, we know many composers wrote for
> specific players and
> heavens knows we can't replicate the exact body
> structure of those
> players, perhaps the works shouldn't be played at
> all!? Lions and
> tigers and tenor saxophones, oh my!
>
> Substituting Bb for A or Bb for C just doesn't seem
> like a hangable
> offense in the scheme of greater things. I would
> argue that if one
> has both instruments one should choose the clarinet
> specified (we can
> at least give the composer the benefit of the
> doubt). I would not
> argue that everyone who has ever had a C clarinet
> put in front of
> them without owning the proper instrument is
> committing an act of
> arrogance and, by extension, a crime against the
> composer.
>
> -Adam
>
> At 08:12 PM 3/25/2006, dnleeson wrote:
> [...]
> >What this shows is that clarinet players (not all,
> but many) are
> >only concerned with the pitch they produce, and
> that it should be
> >in the right register. The presumption is that if
> those
> >constraints of pitch/register combination are met,
> then
> >everything is OK. But with that attitude, one
> could just as well
> >assert that the player wishes to execute on a bass
> clarinet (or
> >even a tenor sax instead of a clarinet), playing
> the music an
> >octave higher where necessary in order to retain
> the right
> >register. The subject of the character of what is
> produced
> >appears not to enter the equation.
> >
> >To maintain that the behavior of professional
> players is or
> >should be inherantly different from the behavior of
> non
> >professionals is a very questionable thesis. It
> may be better
> >(or in some cases worse), but both performers
> should make an
> >effort to achieve that which has been requested by
> the composer,
> >to the extent of their abilities. Even though there
> may be
> >exceptions, it is a false hypothesis to presume
> that the clarinet
> >player knows better on which instrument s/he should
> play.
> >
> >If there is any scorn to go around, it is to the
> arrogance of
> >clarinetists who believe that they have a right to
> do whatever
> >they wish.
>
>
>
>
>
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