Klarinet Archive - Posting 000347.txt from 2005/11

From: Roger Shilcock <roger.shilcock@-----.uk>
Subj: Re: [kl] Re: Mahler, et. al.
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 03:54:15 -0500


Bruch just wrote "Kol Nidrei". He wasn't Jewish in any way. This is a common
misapprehension.
Roger S.

In message <6.2.3.4.0.20051123082614.025ae2d0@-----.edu>
klarinet@-----.org writes:
> My experience of teaching a diverse university student body all these
> years is that students want very much, and on occasion will demand,
> to be identified first and foremost as themselves and then perhaps
> some distance from that, near or far, will identify themselves as a
> member of some group.
>
> Migration of identity can take place quickly or over a
> lifetime. Immigrants to the U.S. have been known to forbid their
> children to speak the language of the old country because they are
> "now Americans," whereas others cling to the language and customs of
> the old country.
>
> My brother-in-law's grandparents were orthodox Ashkenazi Jews. His
> parents were conservative. He said on many occasions that the words
> he had to speak for his bar mitzvah meant nothing to him and over his
> lifetime he migrated to something else -- his own identity, which
> gave him his own personal and unique character: not exactly Jewish,
> certainly not any other religion, just my favorite brother-in-law Herb.
>
> My son-in-law's family immigrated to the U.S. from a Sephardic
> community in Tunisia via Israel. Are they Jewish? Well, yes,
> indeed. Maybe. Somewhat. But they identify themselves very
> personally as a family and as individuals first and members of a
> group at some distance from that.
>
> An African American student I had many years ago came to me for
> academic counselling on his Chemistry major. I said in passing that
> I was sorry there weren't any faculty members of "his group." He
> became angry and said that he wasn't at all interested in speaking to
> anyone from "his group," but that he wanted to know something about
> what it meant to be a chemist. That was the last time I let that
> phrase slip through my lips.
>
> If Mahler or Mendelssohn or Bruch said of themselves that they were
> Jewish, I figure that would be my criterion for their
> identification. If they said they were something else, then I would
> take that at face value, and to hell with all the rabbis, priests,
> ministers and shamans of the world. In my opinion their opinions
> aren't worth diddly squat as regards others' identities.
>
> Oliver
>
> At 07:41 PM 11/22/2005, you wrote:
> >Dan, the believe that conversion or baptism doesn't count in terms of being
> >Jewish is actually the standard point of view of rabbinical wisdom. Hence I
> >wouldn't call it racist. It dates back to a time, when many Jews were, alas!
> >forced by the christians and other cretins to converse (cf. Muranos etc).
> >Hence the rabbis decided that, even though baptism might be disgusting and
> >deliberate conversion a sign of mental impediment, it is just totally
> >irrelevant in terms of the person's obligations derived from the mizwot
> >burdened upon the chosen people. Baptism is thus not recognized as a
> >religious act at all but one of profanity like many other silly acts
> >committed by Jews on a daily basis.
> >Moreover: "The baptismal process is instantaneous and permanent" -- how
> >about circumcision and Bar Mizwa? Why should those rites be "washed away" by
> >another one of much more dubious character?
> >
> >Shalom,
> >danyel
>
>
>
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---- Erich Kaestner

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