Klarinet Archive - Posting 000161.txt from 2005/11

From: "dnleeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
Subj: RE: [kl] Conversion
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:40:59 -0500

First, Warren, don't be snotty. This is a serious conversation.

Of course there are facts. The party undertook to be converted.
That's a fact. We have no first hand knowledge that underlies the
reasons behind that act. That's a fact. No converted person has
ever described his conversion as one blithely performed. That's a
fact.

And I am not going to make any conclusions about the anti-Jewish
hatredts permeating the Kultur as the ONLY reason underlying it.
That's speculation. That there were anti-Jewish hatreds is,
indeed, a fact. Beyond that I can't say to what extent it
influenced the decision of the converted party. And assumed
influences are hypotheses on the part of those who intepret why
the conversion was performed. I am interested only in the fact
that it was performed. Why does not make Mahler any less
Catholic.

Dan Leeson
DNLeeson@-----.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Rosenberg [mailto:wrosenberg47@-----.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:52 PM
To: klarinet@-----.org
Subject: Re: [kl] Conversion

It's comforting to know that we have an arbiter who decides "the
facts" and
their "importance" and/or relevance.

In what I remember reading on this subject "conversion", there
were no
"facts" regarding knowledge as to why these composers decided to
upwardly
migrate. My guess is that the anti-Jewish hatreds which
permeated the
Kultur might have been a reason. What do you have to say about
about that
fact, Danny?

----- Original Message -----
From: "dnleeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
To: <klarinet@-----.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:41 AM
Subject: RE: [kl] Conversion

> What you doubt and what I think are of no importance here. Only
> the facts of the matter are important. And while your anecdote
> about previous language is charming, that is not what we are
> talking about.
>
> Dan Leeson
> DNLeeson@-----.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Warren Rosenberg [mailto:wrosenberg47@-----.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:27 AM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: Re: [kl] Conversion
>
>
> You mentioned several composers who were Jewish and who
> converted. In
> anti-semitic Europe (not to mention elsewhere), do you think it
> might be for
> reasons other than spiritual/religious that these people
> converted?
>
> Or was it just their new found love of Jesus Christ?
>
> Putting it another way, if there had been no anti-Jewish (may I
> say it?)
> prejudice in Europe, do you think that Mahler, Schoenberg,
> Mendellsohn,
> etc., would have "converted"? I doubt it.
>
> And to say that a person's previous religion is irrelevant is
> like saying
> that a person's original language is irrelevant. At a minimum,
> they would
> pray with an "accent"! :-)
> WR
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dnleeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
> To: <klarinet@-----.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 9:56 AM
> Subject: RE: [kl] Conversion
>
>
> > You are right. And I was told the story of his reconversion
by
> > his grandson who lives in Los Angeles. But I think the
> situation
> > is not at all complicated. Whatever was the most recent
> > conversion is the one that is applicable. So Schoenberg was
> born
> > a Jew. He became a Catholic and ceased being a Jew. He then
> > became a Jew and ceased being a Catholic. If he at some later
> > time became a tree worshipper, then that would be his
religious
> > affiliation from that point until he died. However, I would
> not
> > want to write his obituary.
> >
> > Dan Leeson
> > DNLeeson@-----.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mark [mailto:mgustav@-----.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 9:50 AM
> > To: klarinet@-----.org
> > Subject: Re: [kl] Conversion
> >
> >
> > And what about Arnold Schoenberg?
> > He was born into a Jewish family, in Vienna. At 24 he
converted
> > to
> > Lutheranism and at 59 converted back to Judaism (in Paris)
and
> > stuck
> > with it. Time is tricky. Perhaps if Mahler had lived longer
> he
> > would
> > have converted back.
> >
> > Mark Gustavson
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
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> >
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>
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