Klarinet Archive - Posting 000154.txt from 2005/11

From: "Matthew Lloyd" <matthew@-----.uk>
Subj: RE: [kl] Conversion
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 15:17:00 -0500

I think Warren made a very relevant point about conversions for reasons
that aren't religious, and perhaps made more sense than my previous
posting to the same aim.

Matthew

-----Original Message-----
From: dnleeson [mailto:dnleeson@-----.net]
Sent: 09 November 2005 18:41
To: klarinet@-----.org
Subject: RE: [kl] Conversion

What you doubt and what I think are of no importance here. Only
the facts of the matter are important. And while your anecdote
about previous language is charming, that is not what we are
talking about.

Dan Leeson
DNLeeson@-----.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Rosenberg [mailto:wrosenberg47@-----.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:27 AM
To: klarinet@-----.org
Subject: Re: [kl] Conversion

You mentioned several composers who were Jewish and who
converted. In
anti-semitic Europe (not to mention elsewhere), do you think it
might be for
reasons other than spiritual/religious that these people
converted?

Or was it just their new found love of Jesus Christ?

Putting it another way, if there had been no anti-Jewish (may I
say it?)
prejudice in Europe, do you think that Mahler, Schoenberg,
Mendellsohn,
etc., would have "converted"? I doubt it.

And to say that a person's previous religion is irrelevant is
like saying
that a person's original language is irrelevant. At a minimum,
they would
pray with an "accent"! :-)
WR

----- Original Message -----
From: "dnleeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
To: <klarinet@-----.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 9:56 AM
Subject: RE: [kl] Conversion

> You are right. And I was told the story of his reconversion by
> his grandson who lives in Los Angeles. But I think the
situation
> is not at all complicated. Whatever was the most recent
> conversion is the one that is applicable. So Schoenberg was
born
> a Jew. He became a Catholic and ceased being a Jew. He then
> became a Jew and ceased being a Catholic. If he at some later
> time became a tree worshipper, then that would be his religious
> affiliation from that point until he died. However, I would
not
> want to write his obituary.
>
> Dan Leeson
> DNLeeson@-----.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark [mailto:mgustav@-----.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 9:50 AM
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: Re: [kl] Conversion
>
>
> And what about Arnold Schoenberg?
> He was born into a Jewish family, in Vienna. At 24 he converted
> to
> Lutheranism and at 59 converted back to Judaism (in Paris) and
> stuck
> with it. Time is tricky. Perhaps if Mahler had lived longer
he
> would
> have converted back.
>
> Mark Gustavson
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
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