Klarinet Archive - Posting 000026.txt from 2005/10

From: "dnleeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
Subj: RE: [kl] K622
Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 17:45:19 -0400

Joe, the word "Urtext" is derived from biblical word "Ur" which
was a city where the world supposedly began. It was the place
one went to in order to find the beginning of everthing.

An Urtext edition means that the manuscript in the composer's
hand was consulted. There is no other meaning to the term "Urtext
edition" and you are sort of making rules about what an Urtext
should be in order to fit what you'd like it to be.

Since there is no manuscript of K. 622, there is no Urtext
edition. And the Winterthur mansucript in Switzerland is not a
viable substitute, though it is important and usefu. There may be
thoughtful attempts to produce a nice edition, and everybody
tries hard to be good and decent, but without the manuscript you
cannot get to the village of Ur. There is no road there except
through the manuscript.

I read your comments about something being "Urtext per se" and it
is about as precise as being "almost a virgin." Either an
edition is Urtext or else is not Urtext. There is nothing in
between.

Now that does not mean that everything in an Urtext edition is
100% exactly as the manuscript states. There are editorial
liberties that may be necessary, but what is done is done in
consultation with the manuscript.

So when you use word like "Urtext per se," I have no idea what
you mean by that. No one has any idea of what you mean by that.
It is an edition that practically a virgin. There is no
definition for something to be "Urtext per se."

Were I to do an edition of K. 622, I would work very hard and I
would consult many editions to see what other editors did, and
I'd pray a little, and use all of my knowledge and experience.
When I got done, I could not put words "Urtext Edition" on the
front cover. No one can in the case of K. 622. The road to Ur is
permanently closed in the case of K. 622.

The Linz symphony of Mozart is another example. The manuscript
is lost. All editions are done from uncertain sources. There is
no Urtext edition of the Linz symphony.

Go figure.

Dan Leeson
DNLeeson@-----.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Wakeling [mailto:joseph.wakeling@-----.net]
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 1:53 PM
To: klarinet@-----.org
Subject: Re: [kl] K622

dnleeson wrote:
> I don't think I ever gave agreement to the distinction between
an
> Urtext and an Urtext edition. You may well have spoken of this,
but it
> did not sink in to me. I don't think there is any serious
musicologist
> who would agree with that distinction that you make. Something
is not
> "Urtext per se," it is Urtext or it is not Urtext.

No, I recall you didn't agree, and actually I was raising the
issue in
the hope that we could get more interesting discussion out of it.
;-)
I'd like some clarification by what you mean by something "being
Urtext", because I suspect we're basing our arguments on
different
assumptions. Do you mean by "Urtext" a text of the work that can
be
directly associated with the composer?

My own assumption of what "Urtext" means is that it is to some
extent an
ideal to aspire to rather than any actual given text. i.e. that
Urtext
means the text of the work as the composer conceived it; but any
or all
*actual* texts, however near or far to the composer, may contain
various
errors and inconsistencies. Thus in most cases we do not
actually have
an Urtext itself but rather a collection of textual sources from
which
we have to make our minds up, based on this and on other musical
evidence and knowledge, what might be the appropriate thing to
play.
And this to my mind is where "Urtext Editions" come in, which is
where a
scholar takes and goes over this evidence very carefully to
construct a
text which makes musical and historical sense, but which leaves
us as
players (through footnotes etc.) a complete enough idea of what
the
dilemmas and compromises are to be able to make our own minds up
about
these important decisions.

Given this idea there can be a valid "Urtext Edition" of K622
because,
even though the only texts that can be linked directly to Mozart
are
early sketches (the basset horn in G sketch), there are various
sources
of textual evidence which give us some idea of what is the right
direction to take with this piece. The evidence is much more
scant, of
course, than we would like; but it exists.

On the other hand if "Urtext" means a text of the work that can
be
directly linked to the player, such as manuscript, first edition
(if
overseen by the composer), parts corrected by the composer, etc.
etc.,
and "Urtext Edition" means a work based on only these sources,
then of
course there can be no Urtext Edition of K622.

But I think that publishers, including Bärenreiter and Henle,
don't take
that particular definition of an Urtext Edition. ;-)

-- Joe

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