Klarinet Archive - Posting 000315.txt from 2005/05

From: "danyel" <rab@-----.de>
Subj: Re: [kl] Wagner again
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:39:58 -0400

Dear Tony,
thanks for your considerate remarks. I totally agree that a good
Ottensteiner copy with a proper mp and the right kind of reed is a good
thing. I'd rather employ it for Brahms, though.
The point is, I don't hear those aspects "quintessentially expressive of
some of the deepest and most important things about being human" in Wagner
at all. I am aware that Mahler and Schoenberg were profoundly influenced by
his aesthetics. To me they are but pompous and utterly vulgar. Probably I am
a different character-type, more oral and very little anal. You know how the
anal character is historically linked with fascism. We have to get rid of
it. However, I don't like the "sound porridge" W. creates and the tedium of
hours long screaming. Not to mention the plots and the writing. Lord of the
Rings is Kafka, compared to that rubbish. "Walhalls mutige Helden mied
Walvater"! Gott der Gerechte!
Regardless of W.'s political views, his pathology or biography, I just don't
get what people like about his MUSIC. I don't enjoy hating him or feel
obliged to despise him because I believe he was a fascist. I don't like the
music and the person behind it might elucidate why it is so hideous.
Yes, it makes me insecure in my judgement that very good people like you
defend W. I am also aware that W. is the subject next to Hitler about which
the largest number of books and articles are written and published (in
German). It makes me sick. Believe me, there were times in my life when I
had to discuss W practically everyday with almost everybody I met because
they (left wing, anarchist, bourgeois, what have you) couldn't believe I was
not prepared to separate morals from aesthetics. I don't; I like the
Winterreise or late Brahms because it is a model of virtue. Call it
Confucianist, if you like, but I cannot tolerate corruption, neither in
politics, writing or in music. Why should I?
Someone who writes stuff like that: "Weiche, Wotan , Weiche! Flieh des
Ringes Fluch!" ... bla bla bla ... I call a cretin. And if that person
demands all Jews piled up and burned, it certainly doesn't help.

Best wishes and sorry we don't converse on a more pleasant subject,
danyel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Pay" <tony.p@-----.org>
To: <klarinet@-----.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 6:44 PM
Subject: [kl] Wagner again

> On 15 May, "danyel" <rab@-----.de> wrote:
>
> > Living in bloody Germany I have ever so often to avoid concerts, shut
down
> > the radio or reject records including the music of Wagner and other
fascist
> > composers. What escapes me in this indeed very serious and important
> > discussion (btw. thanks a lot for the detailed and thoughtful
> > contributions, Sarah and Dan), is "why would anybody WANT to listen to
> > Wagner's music?"
>
> I suppose that some of us find that Wagner's music is quintessentially
> expressive of some of the deepest and most important things about being
> human. It's not that we *decide* this, but that it's the way the music
shows
> up to us.
>
> (Of course, my recent experience of playing Das Rheingold to great acclaim
> with the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment under Simon Rattle in
> Baden-Baden probably had that quality largely because I was using my
> Ottensteiner copies, without the silly thin reeds and short lay
mouthpieces
> of many modern clarinets. And in a way, I'm serious about that.)
>
> > Whether his anti-Judaic obsessions surface in the music or lyrics as
such
> > or not, the music (and lyrics) are both unspeakably vulgar and nothing
less
> > than a musical expression of early or, if you like, proto-fascism.
>
> I wonder whether you would be willing to read "Wagner and Philosophy" by
> Brian Magee.
>
> Having been disturbed myself by the sorts of remarks you make, when they
have
> been made by other people, I found this book very illuminating, both of
> Wagner himself and of the philosophies of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche. It
> turns out that Wagner had very different things in mind when composing his
> operas than most people realise.
>
> I know it would be hard for you to be happy if you came to think that
Wagner
> had more to be said for him than you had thought hitherto. That's because
> it's difficult not to enjoy hating and dismissing someone who you think
> deserves that hatred and that dismissal; and it takes a big character to
turn
> that around, even partially.
>
> On the other hand, you might find something worthwhile.
>
> But perhaps not. You will find in Magee's book nothing excusing Wagner's
> antisemitism.
>
> > The same holds true for other disgusting composers like List, Egck or
Orff
> > (either fascists or proto-fascists). It's no surprise to me however:
music
> > being an emanation of thought, what kind of music do you expect a cretin
to
> > compose?
>
> Of course, you cannot reasonably call Wagner a 'cretin'. That's just
silly
> and ignorant. I suggest that much of what you think about Wagner derives
> from what some foolish others have written about him.
>
> Perhaps it's time for you to read some other books, and even to listen
again
> to some of the music.
>
> Tony
> --
> _________ Tony Pay
> |ony:-) 79 Southmoor Rd tony.p@-----.org
> | |ay Oxford OX2 6RE http://classicalplus.gmn.com/artists
> tel/fax 01865 553339
>
>
>
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