Klarinet Archive - Posting 000316.txt from 2004/11

From: "Keith" <100012.1302@-----.com>
Subj: [kl] RE: pitch standard
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 06:50:15 -0500

Much confusion arises, as Tony says, by attempting to apply
equal-temperament piano tuning to wind instruments. From an orchestral or
chamber music point of view, pianos are always out of tune on any chord
except a pure octave. They are probably only acceptable in an ensemble
because their tone is transient, which means it can contain anharmonic
overtones (like a gong), which is not found in principle on continuously
blown or bowed instruments, and covers the intonation. Organ is far worse in
ensemble, of course.

A wonderful, short book for those interested in flexible tuning is "Lies my
music teacher told me" by Gerard Eskelin. An interesting exercise for the
doubters is the following, which needs two players, each on flexible
instruments (not keyboards).

1. To start with we need to tune both players to a C till the beats
disappear completely (say one every five secnds or so).

2. Player 2 then drops to the G a fourth below, tunes till the beats
disappear, then remembers this and returns to the C.

3. Player 1 then plays the B a seventh above. Tune till the beats disappear
(they will, though it is a big interval to listen to).

4. Player 2 then drops to his previously-established G.

5. Player 1 now retunes his B. He will have to flatten it quite perceptibly
to make the beats disappear and the chord sound well tuned.

The reason is that in the first interval, the B is tuned to the seventh of
the tonic (I chord). The second is tuned to the third of the dominant (V
chord in US notation). As its name implies, this is a more powerful
influence than the distant tonic, so the chord is sucked into the major
third ratio from the G. Mathematically this is a different ratio from the
seventh, judging from when the beats disappear (see the above book for more
details). So the tuning has to be flexible. It is not a question of the
ensemble wandering around in pitch through incompetence, but a physical
necessity from the mathematics of vibrations. Forest and Tony have nicely
explained the practical implications of these enharmonic changes. It makes a
stunning difference to the sound when an ensemble does it right.

So, the fact that a clarinet can be put "on the needle" on every note is
useful but only part of the story. The pitch should be bendable, in some
cases by as much as 30 cents (as Forest says), to sound in tune in different
contexts.

There are some interesting passages in orchestral music in which even a
professional orchestra often sounds out of tune, because of enharmonic
changes that are not properly perceived. For example, the transition
passages in Beethoven's Fifth, between the third and fourth movements, and
in the scherzo of the Ninth. In the latter, the violins play Ebs in bars
159/160 and in 161/162. But in the first two bars they are playing the tonic
of Eb, in the next two the dominant (V chord root) of Ab. Their tuning has
to sharpen slightly between these pairs of bars to stay in tune. The passage
goes on modulating rapidly and often sounds sour. Beethoven, being deaf,
probably heard this perfectly in tune inside his head!

Bar 15 of the first movement of the ninth often also sounds out of tune but
that's 'cos the bassoon moves to his bottom note, which is usually sharp
:-).

Keith Bowen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Pay" <tony.p@-----.org>
To: <klarinet@-----.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: [kl] pitch standard

> On 8 Nov, "David Renaud" <manonrivet@-----.ca> wrote:
>
> > I will relate to piano since I know that so well.
>
> [snip]
>
> Sorry to snip your interesting stuff, but I just want to say that the
problem
> of making a piano sound good (including 'stretch' octaves) is very
different
> from the problem of making a wind chord (say) sound good, because the
piano
> isn't a 'harmonic' instrument in the way that a wind instrument is.
>
> So much so, that if you play a chord on a well-tuned piano, and then,
> note by note, have a wind group reproduce that chord....
>
> ...then it sounds really out of tune.
>
> Of course, in a real situation, the wind group adjusts to minimise
> that out-of-tuneness -- even when playing in unison with the piano
> chord, when it's a question of choosing the most effective compromise.
>
> Tony
> --
> _________ Tony Pay
> |ony:-) 79 Southmoor Rd tony.p@-----.org
> | |ay Oxford OX2 6RE http://classicalplus.gmn.com/artists
> tel/fax 01865 553339
>

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