Klarinet Archive - Posting 000305.txt from 2004/11

From: "David Renaud" <manonrivet@-----.ca>
Subj: Re: [kl] pitch standard
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 18:48:48 -0500


Forest

Last stab at this....promise.
I think we are tripping over semantics in part.

I may not be explaining it as well, but as you noted yourself
sometimes 30 cents sharp in the top end.....very wide......yes
Try 30 cents in the midrange.......no way....much fussier.

I will relate to piano since I know that so well.

The tuning of the top octave will be 20 to 50 cents
sharp compared to a tuner to match the harmonic fabric, and
vary piano to piano according to how sharp that pianos harmonic
fabric is.

On the Guild tuning exam there is a 6 cent margin of error
before loosing a point in the top octave, because the margin for taste
is so wide up there. 6 cents both directions for a 12 cent window
6 cents sharp can sound just fine.

The same 6 cents variation in the midrange sounds absolutely horrible.
The margin of error before loosing a point is 1 cent in midrange for the RPT
exam.
Even 1 cent random variations produces a terrible temperament in midrange.

I tune 20 pianos a week, 20 years by ear, and the last 2 years analysing
8 hours a day what I do with a machine and explaining it to other tuners.
This includes a lot of concert tuning as well. Now I am one of about
50 active examiners in North America.
Stretch variations are vary wide in the top end......very wide.

High unisons are fussier to match up there though, once a choice is
made, matching it is very exact.
.............................
Placement choices up high are wider, unisons are finer.

I have measured these things in orchestra as well.
I may not be explaining it as well, but as you noted yourself
sometimes 30 cents sharp in the top end.....very wide......yes
Try 30 cents in the midrange.......no way....much fussier.

Cheers

----- Original Message -----
From: "Forest Aten" <forestaten@-----.net>
To: <klarinet@-----.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 6:24 PM
Subject: RE: [kl] pitch standard

>
>
> Forest, this is a question, not a challenge or disagreement:
>
> Assuming that you had decided that a certain pitch was necessary in a
> certain ensemble situation --- and putting 'social courtesy' aside,
> thinking only of the music --- how far "off" would you say that a player
> could be before the other ensemble members would be justified in
> commenting that the player was "out of tune"?
>
>
> ----------------------------------
> Not much time...sorry. I've got to go play....but...
>
> I agree with Dave about establishment and use of a common tuning standard.
>
> I also agree with Dave in his estimation of what might be acceptable about
> how many cents off I (or other professionals) might accept as being
> "in-tune". BUT....here are a few things to think about. Scattered as
usual.
> Sorry.
>
> I don't agree with Dave with regard to the mid or lower frequency
> instruments being more difficult to play in tune than the higher frequency
> instruments. The lower the frequency the longer the wave form and so if
you
> have a discrepancy in the "pitch", you'll have the wave forms cross less
> often in a/the same given time frame than with the higher
frequency/shorter
> wave form instruments. Remember that every time the waves cross you have a
> node and this is what is causing all of the noise "beats" associated with
> being "out of tune". The higher frequency instruments produce shorter wave
> forms and you'll hear more beats per the same time interval being the same
%
> of cents out of tune.
>
> I know from years of playing in very good professional ensembles that
> players have a very difficult time maintaining Dave's standard or 4 cents.
> Many players...even very good players would have a difficult time with
this
> standard. Even when playing in a solo situation, I've had to bend notes as
> far as 30 cents to play in-tune within the orchestral harmonic fabric. It
is
> very complicated. Movements of harmonic structures through the orchestra
> often results in movement of the pitch center of the orchestra.
>
> Lots of things to think about.
>
> Let me give you a practical example from the opera repertory. We are
> currently performing Bizet's opera, Carmen. In the first act the second
> clarinet has several solo notes that blossom into sections full of rich
> chords and slow melodic passages. It happens three times. In each case the
> 2nd player has been resting for several measures prior to the
entrances...so
> these three sustained quarter notes come out of no-where.
>
> The player must anticipate the placement of the note (intonation) based on
> several things.
>
> The orchestra finishes a phrase and the solo note must come from the pit
> with some relationship to what came before. Whatever the pitch center.
>
> Following harmonic structure (where does the solo note fit into the
> following chords)
>
> Instrumentation (knowing tuning tendencies of the instruments that will
make
> up the harmonic basis...including your clarinet and its tendencies)
Playing
> "in-tune" means playing with others....tuning standard or not.
>
> The first solo note is the written C in the staff. Most French clarinets
> sound this note slightly sharp (often as much as 10-20 cents if a player
> checks using a tuner...and doesn't move the pitch) relative to the A440
> tuning standard.
>
> *As an aside: I've performed the opera on two sets of clarinets during
this
> run. I've done the show with set of R13's and a newer set of Festivals.
The
> right hand of almost all Festivals is higher than the R13's so a different
> tact must be taken. You have to really know your clarinets.
>
> Because of the C's position in the upcoming chord, I didn't have to move
it
> much, maybe 5 cents down. The bassoon is the first instrument to enter
after
> the solo note and they enter on a note in the chord that requires a
slightly
> higher pitch AND the note they play on the bassoon is typically higher. So

> it's easy.
> The second solo note is the written E at the bottom line of the staff. A
> note that is typically low, relative to the A440 tuning standard, on most
> French clarinets. It is on mine R13 and even lower on the Festivals.
Because
> of the placement in the upcoming chord I really have to move this note up,
> as much as 10 cents for it to sound "in-tune" in the chord. Moving the
first
> line E up 10 cents is a challenge as there isn't much flexibility on that
> note. I have to move it, no choice. I have horns entering first to deal
> with, as these chords develop. Horns have different tuning issues from the
> bassoon.
>
> I could probably find examples in every work I've played where a player
> might be required to move a note a lot more than 4 or 5 cents in order to
> sound "in-tune".
>
> Sorry it couldn't an easier or more set answer.
>
> Regards,
>
> Forest
>
>
>
>
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