Klarinet Archive - Posting 000506.txt from 2004/08
From: "dnleeson" <dnleeson@-----.net>
Subj: RE: [kl] The making of K. 581
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:23:16 -0400
The authority for the disappearance of the manuscripts of both
622 and 581 is found in a letter from Constanze dated 1799. By
that date, both manuscript were said (by her) to be either stolen
or pawned. (I put that part in my book. You read it. I didn't
make it up. It is what is found in every book on the history of
those two works.) In either case, neither manuscript entered
into the publication process which took place in 1803. I should
add that there is almost nothing that Constanze says that I
believe, but you asked for the basis of the assertion that
neither first edition came from the manuscripts. Do you have any
information that says it happened another way?
After that, everything you say and everything I say is opinion.
Have a nice day.
Dan Leeson
DNLeeson@-----.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Pay [mailto:tony.p@-----.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 2:11 PM
To: klarinet@-----.org
Subject: Re: [kl] The making of K. 581
On 17 Aug, "dnleeson" <dnleeson@-----.net> wrote:
> Tony Pay and I have been having a discussion about the first
printed
> edition of K. 581. He suggests that since the first printed
edition has few
> editorial markings, that it is probably reasonably close to
Mozart's
> intentions. And his argument is from a clever and observant
point of view.
>
> He says, what most editors do is put stuff in, not take stuff
out. So if
> the first edition has few of the things that editors normally
put in to
> show their involvement, the absence of them suggests that there
were not
> many editorial markings put into the music in the first place
by Mozart.
>
> I suggest that the first printed edition is AT LEAST two
generations away
> from the manuscript and probably three, and at each of these
stages, done
> by different people (of unknown skills) at different times,
things happened
> that cause a complete collapse of authority to that first
edition.
My first remark is that if what we have is 'a complete collapse',
then I see
no evidence of that collapse. In what we have of K581 I see a
visionary work
that has its own logic and consistency.
I know that Dan will say that that's 'just my opinion'.
So, just as an aside, I would like to defend this 'just my
opinion'. If I
were asked to justify my view that K581 is a 'visionary work that
has its own
logic and consistency', I would have a number of arguments to
support it.
And I say that such arguments are what our world is constructed
from.
Dan makes great play with what is 'scientific'. But what
constitutes our
scientific view is simply *the best arguments we have at the
moment*.
Science isn't made out of facts. It's made out of explanatory
theories that
include and aren't yet contradicted by those facts.
So I don't apologise for including arguments that support this
opinion of
K581. It then has the status, not of an opinion, but of a
theory.
> ...things happened that cause a complete collapse of authority
to that
> first edition.
>
> First generation: the creation of a set of performance parts
from the
> manuscript in Mozart's hand. On the basis of the typical work
of an 18th
> century music copyist, it is wrong to assume that those
performance parts
> represented an accurate picture of what Mozart wrote. I don't
know what
> they said, but I can make an educated guess that there were
wrong notes,
> incorrect placement of dynamics, incorrect intensity of
dynamics,
> miswritten rhythms, a goodly number of errors in both
articulation types
> and pattern, and finally an uncountable number of changes in
phrase shapes.
You have no knowledge of the extent to which these parts were (a)
miscopied,
(b) corrected after miscopying. The piece was played by Stadler
and others.
That fact argues against your 'educated guess' that they were
riddled with
errors. Why wouldn't they have been accurate?
> Second generation: these performance parts, presumably used to
play the
> work and thus would have many penciled markings in them, were
then used by
> someone to produce something else, which itself was used to
engrave the
> plates that made the first printed edition in 1803.
Again, we know nothing of how the 1803 edition was produced.
What evidence
do you have that the process was as you describe?
> Because the manuscripts of both the concerto and the quintet
were said...
...but on what authority?
> ...to have been lost by that time, it is wishful thinking to
presume that
> anything other than the manuscript parts were used in this
effort to make
> engraved plates, no matter what the AMZ suggests (which is no
better a
> guess than I can make).
I'd say that the authority of the AMZ reviewer is considerable.
His
description of, and complaint about, the alterations to the
Concerto is
consistent with our understanding of what the piece is 'about'
with regard to
the extended register, as well as with the Winterthur manuscript.
That makes
what else he says more believable.
> But it gets worse. The clarinet part of the quintet had to be
modified,
> and someone was paid to make those modifications.
On your terms, we don't know that. There isn't any real evidence
that the
work is for basset clarinet.
Of course, I think it was, from internal evidence -- but you
wouldn't accept
that because it's only an *opinion*.
> If it was not modified, who would buy the work? Who could play
the work?
> What is the market estimate for a composition that cannot be
played by any
> clarinetist other than Stadler, because it required a special
instrument?
> So the clarinet part, at least, was modified to an unknown
degree, and this
> was probably done in the creation of a score (made from the
performance
> parts) which was input to the engraving process.
Nah. Too many assumptions. You can make quite an educated guess
as to what
the modifications are, as with the concerto, by following what I
called
above, "internal evidence".
> If that is the case, we have THE THIRD GENERATION, namely, the
making a
> score from which the engraved plates were made (which can be
thought of as
> a fourth generation). How many of you look like your great
grandfather?????
Well, if you think that, then the Winterthur MS wouldn't look
anything like
the first edition of the Concerto.
BUT IT DOES!
> It is inconceivable to me that these two, maybe three, and
possibly four
> generations of work took place leaving the first printed
edition as
> representing much of what Mozart wrote, at least in terms of
articulations
> and phrase shapes.
Well, I don't agree. It seems to me that you underestimate the
probable
intelligence of the people -- perhaps Stadler's colleagues --
that did
whatever work was required -- IMO less work than you claim -- as
well as
overestimating the number of generations involved.
> While Tony's argument is very strong about editors not taking
things out,
> but rather putting them in, it fails on two counts. First is
the two,
> three, or four generation problem spoken above. And second it
fails because
> Mozart's scores were very much complete.
What we have of K581 is complete by the standards of very many
Mozart MS.
Since you mentioned it, compare K498, the MS of which you posted
here. There
are very few dynamics, and certainly not the sudden 'f' markings
that appear
in editions and are such a problem for modern players to
interpret.
(But that's for another post:-)
> If the first printed set of parts of 581 are barren of
editorial markings,
> then this anomolous situation did not arise from the absence of
those
> markings in the original manuscript score as Mozart wrote it.
Well, thanks for the opinion.
Tony
--
_________ Tony Pay
|ony:-) 79 Southmoor Rd tony.p@-----.org
| |ay Oxford OX2 6RE
http://classicalplus.gmn.com/artists
tel/fax 01865 553339
... Me, indecisive? I don't think I am, do you?
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