Klarinet Archive - Posting 001086.txt from 2004/03

From: Jeremy A Schiffer <schiffer@-----.edu>
Subj: [kl] [OT] not just the music department
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:36:16 -0500

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004, Gene Nibbelin wrote:

> Well excuuuuuse me!!!! Apparently with all your superiority and Ivy League
> super-education, you never learned that it is very stupid to talk down to
> people.

No, I will NOT excuse your behavior. You slandered the whole of public
educators, while seemingly having no conception of the underlying issues
about which you were writing. I'm sorry if I get heated about certain
topics, but the disrespect you show to me and others on this list by not
having a grasp of the facts you're arguing is a far worse offense than my
condescending attitude.

By the way, I do not have an "Ivy League education." I work full-time as
an IT professional at any Ivy League institution. My actual post-secondary
education (thus far) was at a small liberal arts college in the midwest.

> Of course, this is typical of liberals, who are vastly superior to
> all the rest of us, aren't you. I only scanned a few paragraphs of your
> "spin-posting".

Those who resort to ad-hominem (attacking the poster, not the ideas they
present) tend to do so because they can't support their ideas with reason
and facts. Please stop doing this.

Further, I give the greatest respect to people with whom I disagree, as
long as they can support their arguments. My girlfriend's father, a
staunch conservative, has my greatest respect because he knows how to
analyze a situation and draw a well-reasoned conclusion. That we disagree
on the results is incidental. He was, by the way, a public educator in New
York City schools for 40 years.

> YOU must have attended segregated schools, yourself. In Peoria, Illinois, I
> don't believe that they EVER had segregated schools. And what does that
> have to do with my being a Conservative and a Republican?

My high school was overwhelmingly Mexican-American and Native American,
with a smattering of blacks, Asians, and a fair number of white students.
Students tended to self-segregate, but on the basis of interests, not
race.

I never said that YOU attended segregated schools. Your argument was
premised on the fact that schools have deteriorated so much since you
attended public school, primarily because the schools are set up now for
the benefit of the teachers and administrators, not the students. Well, I
was just pointing out the fallacies in your argument; namely, that when
you were in school:

1) teachers were well-respected and a teacher's salary would pay for a
middle class house on its own

2) schools for some people (those who were segregated) were, in fact,
worse than they are now

The point being, you can't compare the situation of 1940s America to
today. We live in a completely different world today, and your
understanding of the current situation (at least as articulated in your
posts on this subject) is less than optimal.

> As a youngster in the mid-1930's during the S.S. St. Louis refugee matter,
> and saw your God, FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT,
> refuse to allow nearly 1,000 Jewish refugees land because they "would have
> exceeded the immigrant quota".

What's your point? Republican administrations have turned away immigrants
for just as long as Democratic administrations have. And what's this "your
God" stuff? You know NOTHING about me except what I have offered up in
this forum. I care very little for most Democrats who run for office.

> The purpose of this is to preface a question that has long bothered me as a
> Conservative: Considering these actions of FDR and his Democrat
> administration in the S.S. St. Louis matter, how can any Jew ever vote for a
> Democrat? And, I am a non-church-going Christian. Am I super-sensitive to
> Anti-Semitism?

First, what does FDR have to do with modern Democrats? The party platforms
are always changing, and the two major parties have virtually switched
places since the 1960. Don't forget, it used to be the Dems who were
considered strong on defense and the Republicans who were the friends of
the poor.

Second, as to the actual situation of the St. Louis (which sailed in 1939,
not the mid-30s), do not forget that the ship actually sailed for Cuba,
where the passengers had landing visas which were not honored. It was not
directly destined for the United States, and while it was reprehensible
not to allow them to land in Florida, it is incorrect to give the
impression that the ship was destined for an American port initially.

Finally, to answer your question, perhaps Jews (like me) can vote for
Democrats because they see their interests better reflected in the social
ideals of the Democratic party - that equality of opportunity is a
worthwhile goal, and that government can help to relieve some (not all) of
society's ills.

Anyway, this is really getting off-topic, and I'm sure you stopped
reading long ago.

-jeremy

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