Klarinet Archive - Posting 000395.txt from 2003/08

From: Jimmy Lee <jrlaudio@-----.net>
Subj: Re: [kl] The Lure of Certainty
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:22:15 -0400

What ever happened to the McLean?
Jimmy

Customer Service wrote:

> I think some about a double mac ?? )))
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tony Pay" <tony_pay@-----.uk>
> To: <klarinet@-----.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 7:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [kl] The Lure of Certainty
>
> > --- Andy Raibeck <klari_1@-----.com> wrote:
> >
> > > --- Tony Pay <tony_pay@-----.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > [snip]
> >
> > > > Now, someone responding to this 'McDonald' here commented on his
> insistence
> > > > on double lip for all his students, regardless, by saying "I guess he
> was
> > > > serious."
> > > >
> > > > What that means is that this person was actually applauding McDonald's
> > > > behaviour.
> > >
> > > Are you referring to Russell Harlow's post? If so, then I would say your
> > > assumption that he was *applauding* McLane's (alleged) insistence on
> double-
> > > lip is quite a stretch. I interpreted the "I guess he was serious"
> remark as
> > a
> > > "throw-away" remark in reaction to this (alleged) insistence, and not an
> > > endorsement.
> >
> > OK, I accept that 'applaud' is too strong. What I wanted to say was that
> he
> > didn't condemn the insistence, even if his own attitude was more moderate.
> >
> > My own view is that that fact constitutes a significant statement about
> the
> > context in which 'a teacher's insistence' is considered -- even if
> Russell's
> > lack of condemnation was totally innocent.
> >
> > Really, that's the nub of what I want to say. Reading Russell's post
> again, I
> > can't detect any hint that he wants to say that for McLane to have
> insisted on
> > double lip embouchure, regardless, would have been extraordinarily
> > presumptuous.
> >
> > > > He believed that McDonald *really knew*, you see, what you SPOZED
> > > > to do to be a REAL clarinet player. What you spozed to do is what he
> said
> > > > you spozed to do, namely use double lip embouchure, and then
> EVERYTHING
> > ELSE
> > > > WILL JUST FALL INTO PLACE.
> > >
> > > No. He said that this is *perhaps* what double lip does for you. He also
> said
> > > that double lip isn't for everyone. Nowhere did I see anything that said
> you
> > > are "spozed" to play double lip.
> >
> > Yes, I accept that too. Russell didn't say that, and I apologise to him
> for
> > the possible insinuation that he did.
> >
> > Nevertheless, 'McDonald' still constitutes an 'accepted context', of
> someone
> > who we don't immediately shout down for ignorant arrogance. I was trying
> to
> > get at the *admiration* we have for these 'giants' as teachers, *whatever
> we
> > might think they actually said to their students*.
> >
> > I encounter other such 'giants'. Vincenzo Mariozzi in Italy is an
> example,
> > though admittedly as far as I know he didn't insist on any particular
> technical
> > means of achieving results. Yet, for many years, he dominated the Italian
> > scene, not only by personal charisma, but by behind-the-scenes
> manipulation.
> > His personal criteria for being an acceptable player included that vibrato
> was
> > de rigeur -- "Il clarinetto deve VIBRA!" and it was difficult to work
> anywhere
> > in his sphere of influence, which was considerable, and impossible anyway
> to
> > have lessons with him, without conforming. That has damaged Italian
> clarinet
> > playing.
> >
> > Still, on the other hand, he's almost universally condemned.
> >
> > Alamiro Giampieri's editions are even worse examples of teacher/editor
> > arrogance. They have obscured students' understanding of classical music
> for
> > decades.
> >
> > > > You do have to ignore all the people who for one reason or another
> can't
> > > > use double lip embouchure (I happen to be one of those myself) -- but
> > > > that's just tough on them. And anyone who is already a successful
> clarinet
> > > > player, but who doesn't use double lip embouchure, just doesn't cut
> the
> > > > mustard, really, because they ain't doing what you SPOZED TO DO.
> > >
> > > I didn't see any of this in what Russell wrote. Care to share the quote
> or
> > > link in archives where he actually said this? Or are you talking about a
> > > different post altogether?
> >
> > Russell wasn't in my sights, really. I apologise again personally to him,
> for
> > creating the impression that he was. BUT -- on a list like this, where
> many
> > people have many varied problems, to overextol a particular technique as a
> > panacea is misplaced. As I indicated in a different post, it is perfectly
> > possible to understand what double lip embouchure helps to cure whilst
> > understanding how the same problem may be addressed otherwise.
> >
> > Russell may have done that sufficiently to satisfy you.
> >
> > Here's an analogy. Years ago, we used in England to call the blood
> blister
> > that you sometimes get by nipping your finger, a "black man's pinch".
> This
> > terminology was learnt and used in all innocence, and the notion that it
> might
> > be offensive was met initially with incredulity by almost everyone. Yet
> now,
> > we see the point.
> >
> > I suggest that the idea that there are 'great' teachers who have the power
> to
> > insist on absolute criteria irrespective of people's physical attributes
> is
> > likewise an idea whose time has passed. (Just as the idea that it's
> acceptable
> > for those great teachers to be entitled to bed most of their female
> students is
> > an idea whose time has passed.)
> >
> > > > So I'll have to continue to be prepared to say that I guess that
> McDonald,
> > > > if he exists or existed, is or was an arrogant prick.
> > >
> > > Maybe. But it is my observation that this "McDonald" doesn't have the
> market
> > > cornered in that regard.
> >
> > You mean me, I suppose.
> >
> > Notice, however, that I'm around and available to be called it. Unlike
> most of
> > the so-called 'greats' in our profession.
> >
> > > For someone who says he's quit this group in the past over low
> > > signal-to-noise ratio, lately you seem to be contributing to the latter.
> >
> > I didn't say that, actually. Much of what's thought of as noise here I
> > actually find more interesting than the 'on-topic' stuff. Still, I'm
> sorry
> > that you think that my concerns in this matter are noise. I continue to
> think
> > they're important.
> >
> > > Sheesh.
> >
> > The elegance of your post would have been improved by omitting this word,
> I
> > feel:-)
> >
> > Tony
> >
> > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
> > Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
> >
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> >
> >
>
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