Klarinet Archive - Posting 000388.txt from 2003/08
From: "Customer Service" <eclef@-----.net>
Subj: Re: [kl] The Lure of Certainty
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:12:15 -0400
I think some about a double mac ?? )))
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Pay" <tony_pay@-----.uk>
Subject: Re: [kl] The Lure of Certainty
> --- Andy Raibeck <klari_1@-----.com> wrote:
>
> > --- Tony Pay <tony_pay@-----.uk> wrote:
>
> > [snip]
>
> > > Now, someone responding to this 'McDonald' here commented on his
insistence
> > > on double lip for all his students, regardless, by saying "I guess he
was
> > > serious."
> > >
> > > What that means is that this person was actually applauding McDonald's
> > > behaviour.
> >
> > Are you referring to Russell Harlow's post? If so, then I would say your
> > assumption that he was *applauding* McLane's (alleged) insistence on
double-
> > lip is quite a stretch. I interpreted the "I guess he was serious"
remark as
> a
> > "throw-away" remark in reaction to this (alleged) insistence, and not an
> > endorsement.
>
> OK, I accept that 'applaud' is too strong. What I wanted to say was that
he
> didn't condemn the insistence, even if his own attitude was more moderate.
>
> My own view is that that fact constitutes a significant statement about
the
> context in which 'a teacher's insistence' is considered -- even if
Russell's
> lack of condemnation was totally innocent.
>
> Really, that's the nub of what I want to say. Reading Russell's post
again, I
> can't detect any hint that he wants to say that for McLane to have
insisted on
> double lip embouchure, regardless, would have been extraordinarily
> presumptuous.
>
> > > He believed that McDonald *really knew*, you see, what you SPOZED
> > > to do to be a REAL clarinet player. What you spozed to do is what he
said
> > > you spozed to do, namely use double lip embouchure, and then
EVERYTHING
> ELSE
> > > WILL JUST FALL INTO PLACE.
> >
> > No. He said that this is *perhaps* what double lip does for you. He also
said
> > that double lip isn't for everyone. Nowhere did I see anything that said
you
> > are "spozed" to play double lip.
>
> Yes, I accept that too. Russell didn't say that, and I apologise to him
for
> the possible insinuation that he did.
>
> Nevertheless, 'McDonald' still constitutes an 'accepted context', of
someone
> who we don't immediately shout down for ignorant arrogance. I was trying
to
> get at the *admiration* we have for these 'giants' as teachers, *whatever
we
> might think they actually said to their students*.
>
> I encounter other such 'giants'. Vincenzo Mariozzi in Italy is an
example,
> though admittedly as far as I know he didn't insist on any particular
technical
> means of achieving results. Yet, for many years, he dominated the Italian
> scene, not only by personal charisma, but by behind-the-scenes
manipulation.
> His personal criteria for being an acceptable player included that vibrato
was
> de rigeur -- "Il clarinetto deve VIBRA!" and it was difficult to work
anywhere
> in his sphere of influence, which was considerable, and impossible anyway
to
> have lessons with him, without conforming. That has damaged Italian
clarinet
> playing.
>
> Still, on the other hand, he's almost universally condemned.
>
> Alamiro Giampieri's editions are even worse examples of teacher/editor
> arrogance. They have obscured students' understanding of classical music
for
> decades.
>
> > > You do have to ignore all the people who for one reason or another
can't
> > > use double lip embouchure (I happen to be one of those myself) -- but
> > > that's just tough on them. And anyone who is already a successful
clarinet
> > > player, but who doesn't use double lip embouchure, just doesn't cut
the
> > > mustard, really, because they ain't doing what you SPOZED TO DO.
> >
> > I didn't see any of this in what Russell wrote. Care to share the quote
or
> > link in archives where he actually said this? Or are you talking about a
> > different post altogether?
>
> Russell wasn't in my sights, really. I apologise again personally to him,
for
> creating the impression that he was. BUT -- on a list like this, where
many
> people have many varied problems, to overextol a particular technique as a
> panacea is misplaced. As I indicated in a different post, it is perfectly
> possible to understand what double lip embouchure helps to cure whilst
> understanding how the same problem may be addressed otherwise.
>
> Russell may have done that sufficiently to satisfy you.
>
> Here's an analogy. Years ago, we used in England to call the blood
blister
> that you sometimes get by nipping your finger, a "black man's pinch".
This
> terminology was learnt and used in all innocence, and the notion that it
might
> be offensive was met initially with incredulity by almost everyone. Yet
now,
> we see the point.
>
> I suggest that the idea that there are 'great' teachers who have the power
to
> insist on absolute criteria irrespective of people's physical attributes
is
> likewise an idea whose time has passed. (Just as the idea that it's
acceptable
> for those great teachers to be entitled to bed most of their female
students is
> an idea whose time has passed.)
>
> > > So I'll have to continue to be prepared to say that I guess that
McDonald,
> > > if he exists or existed, is or was an arrogant prick.
> >
> > Maybe. But it is my observation that this "McDonald" doesn't have the
market
> > cornered in that regard.
>
> You mean me, I suppose.
>
> Notice, however, that I'm around and available to be called it. Unlike
most of
> the so-called 'greats' in our profession.
>
> > For someone who says he's quit this group in the past over low
> > signal-to-noise ratio, lately you seem to be contributing to the latter.
>
> I didn't say that, actually. Much of what's thought of as noise here I
> actually find more interesting than the 'on-topic' stuff. Still, I'm
sorry
> that you think that my concerns in this matter are noise. I continue to
think
> they're important.
>
> > Sheesh.
>
> The elegance of your post would have been improved by omitting this word,
I
> feel:-)
>
> Tony
>
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