Klarinet Archive - Posting 001126.txt from 2003/04

From: Roger Shilcock <roger.shilcock@-----.uk>
Subj: Re: [kl] Pronunciation/Spelling
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 00:47:42 -0400

Don't you know irony when you see it?

In message <20030423151837.13609.qmail@-----.org writes:
> Nope, and the bit about something merely needing to be "interesting" to be appropriate for the
> list is B.S. "Interesting" is relative to the extreme. I, for one, don't give a sh*t about
> linguistics and subscribe to this list to talk about the clarinet.
>
> --- Roger Shilcock <roger.shilcock@-----.uk> wrote:
> > Isn't it just fun, though?
> > rjs
> >
> >
> > In message <20030423132120.54275.qmail@-----.org writes:
> > > What has any of this to do with the clarinet? Looks more like material for a listserv on
> > > linguistics.
> > >
> > > --- Tony Pay <Tony@-----.uk> wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 11:18:31 +0100 (BST),
> > > > roger.shilcock@-----.uk said:
> > > >
> > > > > "Rules" of pronunciation in a written language *always* involve
> > > > > interference from the conventions adopted to write them. There are
> > > > > several norms for Spanish pronunciation anyway, so Spanish is a bad
> > > > > example. It also seems reasonable to point out that if you are
> > > > > competent at speaking and reading a language, you will know how to
> > > > > pronounce the words in it - however they are spelt. Roger S.
> > > >
> > > > Can I just ask you to clarify what you have written here? I am
> > > > genuinely curious, because I know you know something about all of this.
> > > >
> > > > I can understand the second sentence:
> > > >
> > > > > There are several norms for Spanish pronunciation anyway, so Spanish
> > > > > is a bad example.
> > > >
> > > > ....even though I don't think it really applies to what we're talking
> > > > about. I take it (I don't know much about Spanish) you mean that
> > > > Spanish has regional variations of pronunciation, and indeed that's true
> > > > of Italian too, where for example many Tuscans pronounce hard 'c' as
> > > > 'h'. Is that right?
> > > >
> > > > But if that is what you meant, that doesn't mean Italian is a bad
> > > > example of close correlation of spelling and pronunciation. Because in
> > > > any one region, the correlation *across the language* (ie in different
> > > > words) between a particular group of letters and how that group of
> > > > letters is pronounced, is close; and in another region the correlation
> > > > across the language between that particular group of letters and how it
> > > > is pronounced would be equally close -- even though it would be a
> > > > different correlation.
> > > >
> > > > That leaves the first and third sentences.
> > > >
> > > > > "Rules" of pronunciation in a written language *always* involve
> > > > > interference from the conventions adopted to write them.
> > > >
> > > > To begin with, to use the term 'rules of pronunciation' to describe the
> > > > relationship between text and speech seems an odd choice of phrase.
> > > > Surely it's the other way around: we start with the spoken language, and
> > > > then have what we might call *rules of spelling*. And you seem to
> > > > agree; as you say in your third sentence,
> > > >
> > > > > It also seems reasonable to point out that if you are competent at
> > > > > speaking and reading a language, you will know how to pronounce the
> > > > > words in it - however they are spelt.
> > > >
> > > > Now, Wendy mentioned 'rules of pronunciation' in:
> > > >
> > > > > For example, in Spanish, things sound just like they look. You
> > > > > can spell anything in Spanish as long as you can pronounce it
> > > > > correctly. The rules of pronunciation are very stringent.
> > > >
> > > > ....but I had taken her to mean, as above, "The rules of spelling are
> > > > very stringent" -- or perhaps just reinterpreted what she said as, "In
> > > > Spanish, there is a strict (1-1) correlation between spelling and
> > > > pronunciation."
> > > >
> > > > So now, what do you mean in your first sentence by 'interference from
> > > > the conventions adopted to write them'? Is it something like, a change
> > > > in spelling for whatever reason results over time in a change in
> > > > pronunciation, or vice versa, respecting the correlation? Or is it that
> > > > the convention isn't respected, but drifts towards the situation we find
> > > > in English, where the connection between spelling and pronunciation
> > > > varies wildly?
> > > >
> > > > Or what?
> > > >
> > > > Tony
> > > > --
> > > > _________ Tony Pay
> > > > |ony:-) 79 Southmoor Rd Tony@-----.uk
> > > > | |ay Oxford OX2 6RE http://classicalplus.gmn.com/artists
> > > > tel/fax 01865 553339
> > > >
> > > > .... So... Is this seat taken?
> > > >
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> >
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>
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>

--
Cet animal est méchant. Quand on l'attaque, il se défend.
---- Alleged sign in French zoo.

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