Klarinet Archive - Posting 001086.txt from 2003/04

From: Neil Leupold <leupold_1@-----.com>
Subj: Re: [kl] Pronunciation/Spelling
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 00:47:02 -0400

Nope, and the bit about something merely needing to be "interesting" to be appropriate for the
list is B.S. "Interesting" is relative to the extreme. I, for one, don't give a sh*t about
linguistics and subscribe to this list to talk about the clarinet.

--- Roger Shilcock <roger.shilcock@-----.uk> wrote:
> Isn't it just fun, though?
> rjs
>
>
> In message <20030423132120.54275.qmail@-----.org writes:
> > What has any of this to do with the clarinet? Looks more like material for a listserv on
> > linguistics.
> >
> > --- Tony Pay <Tony@-----.uk> wrote:
> > > On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 11:18:31 +0100 (BST),
> > > roger.shilcock@-----.uk said:
> > >
> > > > "Rules" of pronunciation in a written language *always* involve
> > > > interference from the conventions adopted to write them. There are
> > > > several norms for Spanish pronunciation anyway, so Spanish is a bad
> > > > example. It also seems reasonable to point out that if you are
> > > > competent at speaking and reading a language, you will know how to
> > > > pronounce the words in it - however they are spelt. Roger S.
> > >
> > > Can I just ask you to clarify what you have written here? I am
> > > genuinely curious, because I know you know something about all of this.
> > >
> > > I can understand the second sentence:
> > >
> > > > There are several norms for Spanish pronunciation anyway, so Spanish
> > > > is a bad example.
> > >
> > > ....even though I don't think it really applies to what we're talking
> > > about. I take it (I don't know much about Spanish) you mean that
> > > Spanish has regional variations of pronunciation, and indeed that's true
> > > of Italian too, where for example many Tuscans pronounce hard 'c' as
> > > 'h'. Is that right?
> > >
> > > But if that is what you meant, that doesn't mean Italian is a bad
> > > example of close correlation of spelling and pronunciation. Because in
> > > any one region, the correlation *across the language* (ie in different
> > > words) between a particular group of letters and how that group of
> > > letters is pronounced, is close; and in another region the correlation
> > > across the language between that particular group of letters and how it
> > > is pronounced would be equally close -- even though it would be a
> > > different correlation.
> > >
> > > That leaves the first and third sentences.
> > >
> > > > "Rules" of pronunciation in a written language *always* involve
> > > > interference from the conventions adopted to write them.
> > >
> > > To begin with, to use the term 'rules of pronunciation' to describe the
> > > relationship between text and speech seems an odd choice of phrase.
> > > Surely it's the other way around: we start with the spoken language, and
> > > then have what we might call *rules of spelling*. And you seem to
> > > agree; as you say in your third sentence,
> > >
> > > > It also seems reasonable to point out that if you are competent at
> > > > speaking and reading a language, you will know how to pronounce the
> > > > words in it - however they are spelt.
> > >
> > > Now, Wendy mentioned 'rules of pronunciation' in:
> > >
> > > > For example, in Spanish, things sound just like they look. You
> > > > can spell anything in Spanish as long as you can pronounce it
> > > > correctly. The rules of pronunciation are very stringent.
> > >
> > > ....but I had taken her to mean, as above, "The rules of spelling are
> > > very stringent" -- or perhaps just reinterpreted what she said as, "In
> > > Spanish, there is a strict (1-1) correlation between spelling and
> > > pronunciation."
> > >
> > > So now, what do you mean in your first sentence by 'interference from
> > > the conventions adopted to write them'? Is it something like, a change
> > > in spelling for whatever reason results over time in a change in
> > > pronunciation, or vice versa, respecting the correlation? Or is it that
> > > the convention isn't respected, but drifts towards the situation we find
> > > in English, where the connection between spelling and pronunciation
> > > varies wildly?
> > >
> > > Or what?
> > >
> > > Tony
> > > --
> > > _________ Tony Pay
> > > |ony:-) 79 Southmoor Rd Tony@-----.uk
> > > | |ay Oxford OX2 6RE http://classicalplus.gmn.com/artists
> > > tel/fax 01865 553339
> > >
> > > .... So... Is this seat taken?
> > >
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>
> --
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>
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