Klarinet Archive - Posting 000529.txt from 2002/10

From: "Bruce E. McGarvey" <bmcgar@-----.net>
Subj: [kl] Re: Wacky reed problem
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 02:36:40 -0400

Folks,

Thanks for all your suggestions. Let me take respond to them in this one
post, so I don't choke up the list. Warning: I do digress here on a few
points. Please forgive me for any fatigue I might cause:

Steve Hartman writes:
"Is it possible that your student is taking less and less of the mouthpiece
(and reed) in her mouth
as her embouchure tires? That would have the effect of gradually choking
off the reed...."

Not that I can tell, but anyway, as I said, the reeds choke for me too after
she's used them for a few hours (at least 2 or 3). If she's doing as you
suggest, that would account for the bad sound and intonation, but would be a
response to the problem, not the cause of it, I think.

--- Karl Krelove writes:

"I'm a little confused about the conditions that precede whatever is
happening to your student's reeds. You seem to be saying that it happens
after playing on them "for a while...for a couple hours..." Is this
continuous playing (2 hour+ lessons?) in your presence?...."

No, not continuous playing; after 2 or 3 hours or more total time playing on
the reed. Yes, she comes to lessons with these reeds, but the problem
doesn't start while I'm with her.

"Are you sending her home after a lesson with a playable reed and she's
coming back next lesson with one that isn't (possible storage, break-in or
cane problems or a combination)?..."

Yes. I've picked out her reeds, adjusted them, AND broken them in for her in
trying to find the solution, and these reeds come back "closing". (I've used
both Gonzales and Vandoren reeds with her, by the way.) That's why I think
it's either a storage problem or something peculiar about the way she's
playing or handling them that I just can't see.

"BTW, have you checked the reeds themselves on a flat glass or even with a
straight edge to see if they *are* warped? You only say '...as if they're
being warped....'...."

Yes. They're not warped that I can tell. (This is beginning to defy logic,
isn't it.)

--- Ken Shaw writes:

"(1) Does this happen with all your student's reeds, or just this one? She
should try several."

All reeds, both Vandorens and Gonzales.

"(2) Her reed may be warped down the center on the bottom. Put it on a
sheet
of 600 grit sandpaper on a flat surface (preferably plate glass) and, with
your fingers only on the bark, polish it down until the entire bottom
surface
is shiny."

We tried that as part of "our" normal reed preparation technique for awhile.
However, I've never really cared much for this widely accepted practice for
both logical and practical reasons:

a. If you can see that a reed is warped by putting on a flat surface, it's
probably too far gone to be fixable, especially with 600 grit paper. Taking
down the back of a reed that's that visibly warped enough to correct the
warpage, even by only holding it down on the bark, is going to throw the
vamp and the tip off so badly that it's not worth the effort. Though I may
be flying in the face of accepted practice here, the most I'll do to the
back of the reed is to polish it in this way with just a few strokes to get
rid of any grit or other small imperfections that might cause the reed not
to lay well on the mouthpiece. But use this technique to fix a warped reed?
No.

b. Some advocates of this practice say that polishing the back will keep
moisture absorbtion down. However, the cut cane tubule ends that are the
prime sites for absorbtion open on the vamp side and tip, not on the back of
the reed, where there are no open tubules. I feel pretty good about
suggesting that, compared to the tip and vamp areas, the back absorbs very
very little moisture. I'd rather take my chances and leave the back alone
than to risk altering the characteristics of the tip and vamp by sanding
down the back, even with care and the proper tools.

"(3) Pressure in the "heart" area down the center of the vamp can weaken
that
area and make the reed close up. Make sure your student isn't pressing on
that area with her thumb to make the response easier."

I don't quite follow you here? Pressing it with her thumb while she's
playing?

If you mean when she handles the reeds on and off the mouthpiece, no. She's
not doing that.

"The Reedguard holder does the same thing. Experiment with the plastic
holders that Vandorens come in, or even an old-fashioned cardboard and paper
holder."

As I noted in my original post, I'm very aware of the problem that the metal
clamp on the Reedgard metal holder can cause, and make sure that only the
amount of pressure needed to hold the reed is applied. I won't claim the
Reedgard holder, even as I use it, will not damage the cane at all. However,
I've been happy with it for 30 years, and have not had problems of "crushed
heart" using them with care.

"(4) The Gigliotti ligature has four nibs at the corners that hold the reed
down. I used one for a while, but changed when I found it made indentations
in the bark and didn't put pressure on a large enough area to prevent small
leaks. Try a standard metal ligature or a Bonade or a Rovner. Tighten it
up
good and snug, and then back off the screw(s) 1/4 turn."

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I've used standard and
inverted Bonades extensively (though I haven't altered them by transversally
filing down the middle of their rails, as some advocate), but I'm still
happier with the way reeds respond using the Gigliotti inverted ligature. I
also find tightening any ligature up "good and snug" (as I'm only guessing
you mean it) downright dangerous to the reed.

Anyway, I've never experienced the "small leaks" you mention using any
ligature. I can't imagine this happening with a reed or mouthpiece that
isn't severly warped already.

By the way, (insert smile here, so's not to start a controversy), I really
hate Rovner ligatures. They're a pain to mount and position the reed with,
and I find no advantage "sound-wise" to them, though I'm sure they're more
gentle on the mouthpiece than metal ligs.

"Mouthpieces wear..."

As I noted, I gave her her mouthpiece (Borbeck 11) after using it myself,
and I occasionally play her mouthpiece using my reeds during her lessons. It
plays as well as it did four months ago when I gave it to her, and as well
as the Borbeck 11 that I use now.

"(4) Some mouthpiece makers put a small dip in the table to make response
more
lively. If Borbeck uses this design, it can often help to turn the reed
over
and take off a shaving about 1/16" thick on the bottom 1/8" of the butt."

The Borbeck doesn't have this "dip" (unless I'm checking the table
incorrectly). Again, the variable here is probably not the mouthpiece or the
reed make, especially because we're both using the same equipment. I've
played many of her new and mature reeds on my mouthpiece, and many of my new
and mature reeds on hers. When I play her mature reeds on either mouthpiece,
there's the "closing" problem. When she plays my reeds on either my
mouthpiece or hers, there is no problem.

What's happening is a consequence of how she plays reeds or how she stores
them, it seems to me. I wish I could "watch" when I'm not around. Maybe
she's doing something weird at home that I can't see when she's in a lesson.

"(5) Finally, as Gene says, the reed cut may be the problem. As I recall,
Gonzalez reeds are made with a thick blank, like the old Morres.
Thick-blanks mean that the reed tip comes from an area deeper in the cane
than it would with standard blanks, and most of the fibers are higher up.
Have your student try the Mozart reeds from the same maker, or standard
Vandorens, both of which have more fiber."

Although this sounds plausible, I haven't found Vandorens to be appreciably
different in their playing qualities after proper adjustment than Gonazales
or Mozart reeds. I switched to Gonzales because I got tired of having to do
major adjustments to 8 out of 10 Vandorens, sometimes pitching half of a box
because, admittedly, I'm too lazy to want to have to struggle with the worst
ones. Also, I find Gonzales reeds better finished and much more consistently
graded and long-lasting than Vandorens, and the cane has fewer obvious
defects. (I'm with Phil re: Gene'e previous post on reeds here.) But this
isn't getting to the heart of the matter, though I appreciate the input,
because the problem with this student is a pretty severe one, and I really
don't think that changing between different high-quality reed brands is
going to make much of a difference.

I did receive an interesting personal reply to my post from Mark M. (not
sure if he wants his last name posted):

"I bet your student is sucking on the reed and putting pressure on it with
her tongue when she wets it, thus warping the reed and making it go out of
whack after a few minutes."

In this case, the warp may be temporary, giving a "memory" to the cane that
manifests itself only when the reed is wet and more pliable, which would
account for my not being able to see a warp in the dry reeds she's brought
over for me to check on the glass. Interesting possibility, though weird
too.

Anyway, for those who are interested, here's my course of action at this
point:

1. I'm going to look at how she handles the clarinet to see if Mark's
"sucking on the reed" thing is going on, and also watch how she handles her
reeds on and off the mouthpiece.

2. I'll check her reeds when wet to see if they're warped then, not that
that's going to help much. But if they do seem warped when wet, but not when
dry, I'll at least have more information to confuse you all with.

3. I'll have her keep one of my adjusted and mature reeds on her mouthpiece
through at least 3 or 4 hours of playing--no removing it for storage. If the
reed starts closing, I think I will be able to concentrate on an oral
chemistry, "mouthing", or handling problem. If it doesn't, it's gotta be
storage.

4. I'm going to quiz her husband about what she does with her reeds when
she's not playing. One never know's what interesting things one may find out
when spouses are around.

5. I'll have her store her reeds on piece of glass until we get some
information via 1-4.

Well, so much for that. Sorry about the long-windedness (and the
digressions), but this is driving me wild!

And thank you for your responses! Very much appreciated. (Keep 'em coming.
I'll report when and if I ever solve this mystery.)

Bruce

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