Klarinet Archive - Posting 000740.txt from 2002/04

From: Daniel Leeson <leeson0@-----.net>
Subj: Re: [kl] Tony Pay, Articulation and K. 622
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:10:24 -0400

It is absolutely and literally impossible for any printed edition to get
closer to the original since we have no idea what the original said. It
has been lost since around 1803 and absolutely nothing is known to have
been derived directly or indirectly from it, with the exception of the
preservation of pitches, and even that is very suspect.

While we do have the fragmentary sketch of the basset horn concerto in
G, which became the clarinet concerto in A, it is very sketchy and a
strong argument could be voiced that, in its sketch form, it is not
necessarily representative of what Mozart would have eventually used.
But it is still very much worth a look. The sketch is printed in the
Barenreiter volume of K. 622.

So we are nowhere in terms of having an authentic edition, and it is
highly doubtful if we will ever get anywhere. The Barenreiter edition
was more concerned with the establishment of the low note passages, than
it was in achieving an edition with reliable dynamics, phrases, and
ornaments. But at least it did take a lot of the slur marks out, which,
while a step in the right direction, is not the be-all end-all of
editing, but with respect to K. 622, what is?

If you want to see real Mozart clarinet writing, get the NMA edition of
the serenades K. 375 (for 8) and K. 361. There is an extraordinary
amount of "no slur" passages that appear exactly that way in the
manuscript and no effort was made to edit those passages into
contemporary romantic form. They were left alone under the presumption
that Mozart knew better what he wanted than the editors did.

As for Weber, I think that the desire to have the "long phrase" was
apparent even in his day (and he was a first-cousin to Mozart's wife) so
I'd be careful about using Weber as a guide to how to phrase Mozart.

Dan Leeson

Paolo Leva wrote:
>
> What are the editions that in your opinions get closer to the original
> manuscripts, according to what you and Pay hold. I have the Barenreiter
> editions of the concert and 2 editions for the quintet: the "Breitkopf &
> Hartel" (with really lots of long slurs) and the Peters edition. It would be
> surely interesting to "try out" (as Anthony Pay says) a different way of
> phrasing, but I need to have some source.
>
> I also wonder whether these arguments apply to Weber as well, being him both
> a classicist and a preromantic. I have both the Breitkopf & Hartel and the
> Peters edition of the first concert and they differ quite a lot, not only in
> slurs but even in notes, ornamentation and so on. Being the Breitkopf &
> Hartel much more edited, and much similar, for instance, to what Leister
> plays.
>
> I have looked for articles or books about Weber, with special regard to his
> clarinet music, performance tradition and so on, but found very little. I
> probably look in the wrong places, could anyone help me?
>
> -paolo
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Leeson" <leeson0@-----.net>
> To: <klarinet@-----.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 5:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [kl] Tony Pay, Articulation and K. 622
>
> > And there is yet another reason to commend Tony for his emphasis on
> > tonguing rather than slurring many passages. It is far more defensible
> > historically than any other phrasing technique. The bulk of the
> > manuscripts in Mozart's hand and that use clarinets in florid passages
> > (for example, K. 375, 388, 361, the Parto aria, K. 452 to name just a
> > few, and each of which is a major clarinet work) show very clear and
> > unambiguous descriptions of how Mozart's notates his clarinet parts. And
> > the fact is indisputable that many of those passages that have appeared
> > in earlier editions as slurred are in fact not slurred at all in the
> > manuscript. Some editor concluded that the passages should be slurred,
> > not Mozart.
> >
> > The occasional response to this anomoly was always to presume that
> > Mozart was either lazy ("he didn't want to write all those slurs") or
> > stupid ("didn't Mozart realize that tongues don't move that fast?").
> > But the fact is that the surface texture of 18th century music was much
> > rougher than we are led to believe by editors from the Romantic period
> > of music (such as Brahms himself) who wanted the long line,
> > uninterrupted by the use of start-stop articulation.
> >
> > The very worst case of this penchant for the long line and the non-use
> > of the tongue may be found in the Ricordi edition of K. 622, which every
> > Italian clarinet player grew up on because, as Tony mentioned, it was
> > the only authorized edition in the Italian conservatories for a long
> > time.
> >
> > So what Tony has helped do, is restore a practice that never should have
> > been elminated, and would not have been had not the Romantic period
> > relegated the use of the tongue to a great more inactivity than it had
> > been used to in the late 1700s and early 1800s.
> >
> > Dan Leeson
> >
> > HatNYC62@-----.com wrote:
> > >
> > > In a message dated 4/25/02 4:13:32 AM, klarinet-digest-help@-----.org
> > > writes:
> > >
> > > << If I come clean about that recording, I have to say that I now don't
> > > play so much staccato, and it's all changed rather a lot in other ways
> > > too. Part of that is to do with getting better technically on the
> > > instrument. What's not often realised is that staccato is actually in
> > > many ways *easier* than legato, particularly on a period instrument,
> > > because you can control the weight of individual notes more precisely.
> > > If you have to slur, it's harder to make the passagework even -- but
> > > sometimes the end result is more satisfactory, even if you're less
> > > comfortable. >>
> > >
> > > Folks, read this paragraph and learn.
> > >
> > > Tony Pay is one of the best and most impressive models of great
> articulation
> > > on the clarinet in the last 50 years. And great technique in general,
> for
> > > that matter.
> > >
> > > Before I learned how to tongue properly and comprehensively in college,
> I
> > > wondered about Tony's K. 622 recording and all the tonguing.
> > >
> > > But after I learned proper articulation and particularly the stopped
> > > stacatto/prepared fingers technique from Mr. Marcellus, I realized what
> Tony
> > > says above is true. . .technically it is FAR EASIER to play a passage
> cleanly
> > > if you tongue it rather than slur it. This will be doubly true on an old
> > > instrument with many cross-fingerings and stuffy notes.
> > >
> > > Now of course, if the passage is faster than you can tongue, this
> doesn't
> > > apply (Tony can tongue very fast, probably even faster than I). And
> mixed
> > > articulations can be more difficult than EITHER all slurred or all
> tongued.
> > >
> > > If you don't believe me (or Tony) your articulation probably needs some
> work.
> > > It is a part of clarinet technique that is rarely taught well or even
> > > understood. All the important details are in Daniel Bonade's compendium.
> That
> > > book and some of Tony's recordings and Robert Marcellus's and Clark
> Brody's
> > > and Karl Leister's should help.
> > >
> > > David Hattner, NYC
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > --
> > ***************************
> > ** Dan Leeson **
> > ** leeson0@-----.net **
> > ***************************
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

--
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** Dan Leeson **
** leeson0@-----.net **
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