Klarinet Archive - Posting 000541.txt from 2001/08

From: Neil Leupold <leupold_1@-----.com>
Subj: [kl] Which clarinet?
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:10:01 -0400

There also exists an issue which can never be resolved, even if
all composers of the past did care about the orchestral palette of
sound, i.e., whether or not they cared with a uniform intensity
and specificity equal to the degree that Dan has revealed for him-
self, and also with particular attention to the clarinet. The
likelihood of this being the case seems overhwhelmingly low. I
believe Stewart Kiritz alluded to this point as well. I certainly
know composers today, personally, who vary *radically* between them
in their respective attitudes toward how rigidly they wish their
instrumental designations to be followed. It comes down to some-
thing much more universal -- both psychologically and temporally
-- than the fact that they are composers, in my estimation: hu-
man beings have been and always will be diverse and varied and
fickle in comparison to each other, by their nature. As the now
famous example about his Three Pieces illustrates, Stravinsky was
one whose intensity about choice of instrument probably equalled
or exceeded Dan's. Based on simple common knowledge about human
nature, coupled with the fact that we're talking about artists,
creators, i.e,. people who are even *more* likely to vary in their
proclivities concerning something like choice of instrument, I can't
reasonably imagine that all composers -- even Strauss, Mahler, Brahms,
etc. -- mirrored Stravinsky's (or Dan's) intense concern that a very
specific instrument be used to play the notes on the page. Some were
explicit about their attitudes, others were not.

To use a common tack in an argument such as this: doesn't the absence
of evidence itself -- for so many composers (including the big name
important ones from the Classic and Romantic eras) -- with respect
to how intensely they felt about this issue, weaken rather than sup-
port the notion that they all felt strongly about which clarinet was
to be used when performing their music? For those composers who were
and are passionate about the issue, it seems they would express that
insistence explicitly to ensure that their directions were followed
to the detail. There are plenty of composers today who, when asked
if they care if the Bb part is played on A, will say, "No, do what
is easiest for you," even though it says "Clarinet in Bb" on the part
as well as in the score. Are they daft and reprehensible for being
so wishy-washy? Or are they a reflection of the variability in at-
titude that was likely to have existed 200 years ago as well?

Neil

--- James Sclater <Sclater@-----.edu> wrote:
> Dear DAN,
> 1. To be consistent, it would seem that you would have to adopt the same attitude about
> instrumental substitution for all the orchestral instruments.
> 2. Since we have no recordings of 18th century orchestras, I'm not able to comment on how
> players sounded on any instrument at that time...maybe it was similar to the way they are played
> today, maybe not.
> 3. The only knowledge I have of how any period instruments sound is through some recordings I
> have heard done by 20th century players. I can't know how the orchestras of the period sounded;
> I don't know if the instruments sounded much the same as today's instruments do or not.
> Instruments today are built differently than in the 18th century.; they might have been played
> with a different concept of sound than players today have.
> 4. I'm certainly not mad at anyone, just confused as to why this continues to be such an issue
> with you. It just seems that we're dealing with such a large number of variables here that it is
> difficult to justify an approach such as yours. It seems to wrap things up into a package that's
> too black and white.
> 5. Your thoughtful comments always enliven this list. Thanks goodness we can continue to
> disagree on such things. I continue to learn a lot from being a part of this group of
> clarinetists.
>
> Jim Sclater
>
> James Sclater
> Professor of Music
> Mississippi College
>
>
> >>> leeson0@-----.net 08/29/01 04:55PM >>>
> Jim, I always know when you are angry with me. When you are not, you
> always say, "Dan ...," but like my mother when you are angry you say,
> "Mr. Leeson ..." So now, I think I'm in your dog house.
>
> I'm not a horn player. I can't comment on the character of the natural
> horn and whether is sounded differently when a different crook was put
> in. I'd like to know the answer to that, but I am not qualified to
> comment on it. Besides, a metal instrument and a wooden instrument
> might not react the same with to being lengthened or shortened.
>
> Can you comment on natural horn characters including the applicability
> of horn crooks?
>
> Dan
>
> James Sclater wrote:
> >
> > I'm wondering if Mr. Leeson considers this matter equally serious in the case of horn players
> who do not use horns pitched in G or A, or E, or D, etc., but transpose everything on the F/Bb
> instrument.
> >
> > Jim Sclater
> >
> > James Sclater
> > Professor of Music
> > Mississippi College
> >
> > >>> leeson0@-----.net 08/29/01 01:31PM >>>
> > Neil -- Re your note (below)
> >
> > In the absence of any evidence that this point was unimportant to them,
> > and in the presence of considerable evidence that the orchestral palette
> > was one of their most personal and distinguishing musical
> > characteristics, it does not matter if these men shared my particular
> > conception. That each man scored the way he did is prima facie evidence
> > that they worked very hard to achieve a particular and very distinctive
> > orchestral palette of sound. I fail to see why this point is even being
> > raised at this stage of music history.
> >
> > You ask if I consider this an important point. Surely you must be
> > joking after all the discussions you and I have had on this matter.
> >
> > But just in case I never said it strongly enough in the past, I suggest
> > that the failure to realize the importance of the instrument's character
> > and contribution towards the overall palette is the single most
> > disguishing failure of contemporary clarinettists in today's orchestras.
> > The willingness to ignore that character is demonstrated by selecting
> > whichever instrument is the player's preference, frequently in
> > contradiction to what is requested, and particularly so in the case of
> > the clarinet in C. This, I suggest, is an indication of the
> > unimportance that most players assign to the question.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> > > This assumes that the composers you mentioned -- or any composer at
> > > all -- shares your conception of an "orchestral palette". Am I cor-
> > > rect in considering this an important point?
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> >
> > --
> > ***************************
> > ** Dan Leeson **
> > ** leeson0@-----.net **
> > ***************************
> >
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> --
> ***************************
> ** Dan Leeson **
> ** leeson0@-----.net **
> ***************************
>
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