Klarinet Archive - Posting 000109.txt from 2001/06

From: Neil Leupold <leupold_1@-----.com>
Subj: Re: [kl] The guru and the internet
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 08:19:46 -0400

Oh, the silliness, all of it. You must be the silliest man alive,
Tony Pay! Do you all hear me? Laugh, by golly! This is incredibly
funny! :-)

Neil

--- Tony Pay <Tony@-----.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 09:34:27 -0700 (PDT), leupold_1@-----.com said:
>
> > --- Tony Pay <Tony@-----.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > > On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 15:26:56 -0700 (PDT), leupold_1@-----.com said:
> > >
> > > > Gee, what prompted this? ;-)
> > > >
> > > > ~ Neil
> >
> > > Piss off.
>
> > Nobody deserves to be the object of these meta-commentaries you
> > habitually post, as if you're in a position to pass judgment on
> > whether one person's statements will harm or benefit any of the 800+
> > members of the list. That's not for you to decide, nor for anybody
> > else beyond the individual readers for themselves, whatever creden-
> > tials or experience you think "qualifies" you to do so.
>
> Yes, you do deserve it, and it is for me to decide, if I choose.
>
> In fact, if you look back, you were the one who metacommented first.
>
> > This brings us back to the question of who is ultimately responsible
> > for the quality and depth of content being broadcast to Klarinet sub-
> > scribers. News flash, Tony: it isn't you.
>
> Absolutely it is my responsibility, because I say so. Who it
> *certainly* isn't, is you, *because I deny it*.
>
> > The same applies to anybody else who believes that they have the right
> > to imply or demand that contributions be of a certain level of
> > erudition or rigorousness of thought, never mind grammar, punctuation,
> > or proper sentence construction. That's just not what Klarinet is
> > about, nor has it ever been, although the better educated and more
> > experienced contributors are clearly an important component of the
> > community's culture.
>
> Klarinet is about what we make it be about. This is my contribution to
> that.
>
> Klarinet is part of the internet, and one of the great failings of the
> internet is that it makes all people's opinions equal. Someone like
> Anne Lenoir, for example, has a presence equally powerful to my own,
> when she claims that it's *other people's fault* that she doesn't
> understand something that they post. When that turned out to apply to
> my posts, I several times offered to help her understand what I was
> saying, but she rejected that.
>
> But perhaps she has unfinished business with the details of her
> schooling that make it helpful for her to duh anything she doesn't
> understand, so I've tolerated that up till now.
>
> The internet consists of a number of different collections of people,
> in newsgroups and mailing lists.
>
> What I notice is that people who *really* know something about the
> subjects that concern those groups, usually fail to participate in the
> group relevant to their expertise. This may be because they don't have
> the time, or it may be because they get fed up with the hassle of
> dealing with, not really the stupidities, but with the misconceptions
> that tyros inevitably have.
>
> The result is that the internet is less useful than it might be, because
> what I called, 'false gurus' arise. These are people who would be
> smiled at any real world situation containing experts, but who, by
> virtue of the medium, can establish some sort of credibility among the
> less knowledgeable.
>
> > The day any of you decides that it's your place to pontificate to
> > others about whether or not their thoughts are worthy of expression is
> > the day you ought to start your own list and become its moderator. Or
> > maybe start your own banana republic and punish its citizens for
> > crimethink. Keep that kind of exclusivity away from Klarinet -- it
> > has already done harm by driving many subscribers into silence, if not
> > off the list entirely. I doubt that's what Jim Fay had in mind when
> > he and Cap Bromley launched this list 9 years ago (was Vic Freyer in
> > on the founding as well in some manner?). In my opinion, the only
> > thing not to be tolerated, beyond obscenity and off-topic threads, is
> > intolerance.
>
> Well, that's your view. I disagree with it.
>
> > Live & let live. And if you don't like what I have to say, delete it.
> > But keep your crappy intolerant responses to yourself.
>
> I shan't. And as I said before, it was your 'crappy intolerance' to my
> statement that your holy grail of "the goal is to reduce 'biting' to
> zero", or whatever you claimed, was only a partial view.
>
> When I encounter clarinet players whom I have to advise, I find that
> most of them have very little idea of what the 'goal' is. Your
> statements, highly technocentric and specific, make it even less likely
> that they would see what the 'goal' actually is.
>
> I could almost say that it's part of the sort of culture you live in. I
> was horrified recently to hear the result of a young British pianist
> studying for a year in the US. All show, all selling, all manipulation,
> no contact with the music. You have wonderful musicians there, and
> wonderful people too. I could almost say that the most wonderful people
> I know are Americans. But you have very great dangers to avoid.
>
> I suppose I amuse myself here. What effect could I have through this
> medium, to this list?
>
> But I amuse myself 'seriously'. I think the internet is worthy of being
> used responsibly.
>
> > I'm not off-topic, and what I submit is always with good intentions
> > and at least a modicum of educated consideration. That can be said
> > for all 800+ of us. The list doesn't need to be "protected" from
> > itself by the benevolent self-importance of people who presume that
> > their agenda is what's best for all.
>
> No, it doesn't. But it does (apparently) need to be protected from
> itself by me.
>
> Out of deference to Richard Bush, I won't sign off as usual:-)
>
> Tony
> --
> _________ Tony Pay
> |ony:-) 79 Southmoor Rd Tony@-----.uk
> | |ay Oxford OX2 6RE GMN artist: http://www.gmn.com
> tel/fax 01865 553339
>
> ... We laughed, we sang, we danced far into the night.
>
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