Klarinet Archive - Posting 000088.txt from 2001/06
From: AnneLenoir@-----.net (Anne Lenoir)
Subj: Re: [kl] The guru and the internet
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:24:56 -0400
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You know what, Tony? The "real" gurus of clarinet playing don't have
time to write on the Klarinet List. We are all greatful for all of the
"pearls of wisdom" that you provide for us, but I have never seen a post
by Jon Manasse, David Schifrin, Sabine Meyer, Eddie Daniels, or David
Weber (all my gurus). These clarinetists are all too busy performing and
recording to write out long articles on the internet. You can be a
self-proclaimed "expert" until you are blue in the face, and I defend
your right to be whatever you are and say whatever you want, Tony. But
that doesn't necessarily mean it's true. Like I said yesterday, "One
clarinetists fishbait is another's sushi". (Rev. Billy C. Wirtz, 2001
tour).
I am looking forward to attending the Clarinet Symposium in Norman.
Is anybody else going? ANNIE
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From: Tony@-----.uk (Tony Pay)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 00:28:42 +0100
Message-ID: <20010603.002842.63@-----.uk>
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Subject: Re: [kl] The guru and the internet
On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 09:34:27 -0700 (PDT), leupold_1@-----.com said:
> --- Tony Pay <Tony@-----.uk> wrote:
>
> > > On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 15:26:56 -0700 (PDT), leupold_1@-----.com said:
> >
> > > Gee, what prompted this? ;-)
> > >
> > > ~ Neil
>
> > Piss off.
> Nobody deserves to be the object of these meta-commentaries you
> habitually post, as if you're in a position to pass judgment on
> whether one person's statements will harm or benefit any of the 800+
> members of the list. That's not for you to decide, nor for anybody
> else beyond the individual readers for themselves, whatever creden-
> tials or experience you think "qualifies" you to do so.
Yes, you do deserve it, and it is for me to decide, if I choose.
In fact, if you look back, you were the one who metacommented first.
> This brings us back to the question of who is ultimately responsible
> for the quality and depth of content being broadcast to Klarinet sub-
> scribers. News flash, Tony: it isn't you.
Absolutely it is my responsibility, because I say so. Who it
*certainly* isn't, is you, *because I deny it*.
> The same applies to anybody else who believes that they have the right
> to imply or demand that contributions be of a certain level of
> erudition or rigorousness of thought, never mind grammar, punctuation,
> or proper sentence construction. That's just not what Klarinet is
> about, nor has it ever been, although the better educated and more
> experienced contributors are clearly an important component of the
> community's culture.
Klarinet is about what we make it be about. This is my contribution to
that.
Klarinet is part of the internet, and one of the great failings of the
internet is that it makes all people's opinions equal. Someone like
Anne Lenoir, for example, has a presence equally powerful to my own,
when she claims that it's *other people's fault* that she doesn't
understand something that they post. When that turned out to apply to
my posts, I several times offered to help her understand what I was
saying, but she rejected that.
But perhaps she has unfinished business with the details of her
schooling that make it helpful for her to duh anything she doesn't
understand, so I've tolerated that up till now.
The internet consists of a number of different collections of people,
in newsgroups and mailing lists.
What I notice is that people who *really* know something about the
subjects that concern those groups, usually fail to participate in the
group relevant to their expertise. This may be because they don't have
the time, or it may be because they get fed up with the hassle of
dealing with, not really the stupidities, but with the misconceptions
that tyros inevitably have.
The result is that the internet is less useful than it might be, because
what I called, 'false gurus' arise. These are people who would be
smiled at any real world situation containing experts, but who, by
virtue of the medium, can establish some sort of credibility among the
less knowledgeable.
> The day any of you decides that it's your place to pontificate to
> others about whether or not their thoughts are worthy of expression is
> the day you ought to start your own list and become its moderator. Or
> maybe start your own banana republic and punish its citizens for
> crimethink. Keep that kind of exclusivity away from Klarinet -- it
> has already done harm by driving many subscribers into silence, if not
> off the list entirely. I doubt that's what Jim Fay had in mind when
> he and Cap Bromley launched this list 9 years ago (was Vic Freyer in
> on the founding as well in some manner?). In my opinion, the only
> thing not to be tolerated, beyond obscenity and off-topic threads, is
> intolerance.
Well, that's your view. I disagree with it.
> Live & let live. And if you don't like what I have to say, delete it.
> But keep your crappy intolerant responses to yourself.
I shan't. And as I said before, it was your 'crappy intolerance' to my
statement that your holy grail of "the goal is to reduce 'biting' to
zero", or whatever you claimed, was only a partial view.
When I encounter clarinet players whom I have to advise, I find that
most of them have very little idea of what the 'goal' is. Your
statements, highly technocentric and specific, make it even less likely
that they would see what the 'goal' actually is.
I could almost say that it's part of the sort of culture you live in. I
was horrified recently to hear the result of a young British pianist
studying for a year in the US. All show, all selling, all manipulation,
no contact with the music. You have wonderful musicians there, and
wonderful people too. I could almost say that the most wonderful people
I know are Americans. But you have very great dangers to avoid.
I suppose I amuse myself here. What effect could I have through this
medium, to this list?
But I amuse myself 'seriously'. I think the internet is worthy of being
used responsibly.
> I'm not off-topic, and what I submit is always with good intentions
> and at least a modicum of educated consideration. That can be said
> for all 800+ of us. The list doesn't need to be "protected" from
> itself by the benevolent self-importance of people who presume that
> their agenda is what's best for all.
No, it doesn't. But it does (apparently) need to be protected from
itself by me.
Out of deference to Richard Bush, I won't sign off as usual:-)
Tony
--
_________ Tony Pay
|ony:-) 79 Southmoor Rd Tony@-----.uk
| |ay Oxford OX2 6RE GMN artist: http://www.gmn.com
tel/fax 01865 553339
... We laughed, we sang, we danced far into the night.
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