Klarinet Archive - Posting 000036.txt from 2001/04

From: Bilwright@-----.net (William Wright)
Subj: Re: [kl] Meta-music?
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 07:46:45 -0400

<><> I wrote:
You could end up with statements such as "This music is ugly" that are
logically equivalent to "This sentence is a lie." They sound
reasonable until you attempt to deal with the two levels of meaning.

<><> Karl Krelove wrote:
Bill, would you give an example of this kind of statement? I'm having
some trouble imagining what one would be.

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0<><> Roger=A0Shilcock wrote:
But nobody is trying to describe music in terms of its own language.

<><> Jennifer Jones wrote:
We just have to keep track of what is what. [snip] I think the beat
and rhythm could be part of music's grammar and syntax, but not
embouchure and breath support. Grammar and syntax are the structure of
language used to organize it.

I now realize (this thought came to me while I was asleep) that
describing 'musical language' with 'text language' is not what I was
trying to talk about. Hence my example was a bad one.

The meta-language confusion happens when a language attempts to
describe itself, not when a person attempts to translate from one
language to another. I should have typed something about how a
'musical statement' (not a text statement) may attempt to 'say'
something about music.

I'm struggling to come up with a good example. The best that I
can come up with right now, at 4 AM, is how the first few bars can
establish a perception of 'musical key' (example: C E G @-----.
The music has attempted to describe itself and this is liable to the
meta-language confusion. 'Accidental notes' may fit into this somehow
if you think of the key as having been a 'lie.'

But as I try to sort through this idea, I don't know yet where it's
going to take me. One thing is for sure, as anyone who attempts to
translate from one language to another language knows, there are some
things that cannot be said completely in both languages. Describing
music with words adds a level of imprecision (duh!).

Maybe I'll be able to take this idea a step further, or maybe it's
hopeless. Somehow Stoltzman's style seems to illustrate the issue to
me, which is what triggered my thought in the first place ....using
the music itself to change the syntax and grammar in mid-stream....
whether I can find proper 'words' for it.... I don't know. For the
moment, I retract my example of "ugly music."

Thank you.
-Bill

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