Klarinet Archive - Posting 000034.txt from 2001/04

From: Jennifer H Jones <kf6mna@-----.com>
Subj: Re: [kl] Meta-music?
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 23:08:34 -0400

On Mon, 2 Apr 2001 09:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Bilwright@-----.net (William
Wright) writes:
> <><> Roger Shilcock wrote:
> But nobody is trying to describe music in terms of its own language
> -
> are they??
> For music, "natural" language - of whatever kind - *is* a
> metalanguage.
>
>
>
> As always, comparison of music to language is a bed of quicksand
> --- and so is any discussion of "good" or "bad".

No, I don't think so, we just have to keep track of what is what.

> But ultimately, I
> believe that music and language spring from the same roots. (Many
> people on this list disagree with me, of course.)

Yes, I think there are definitely some similarities.

>
> That said, if music and language do share some basic structure in
> common, cannot we make a case that "embouchure" and "breath support"
and
> "on the beat" and "intonation" and perhaps even "historical knowledge"
> are all pieces of music's syntax and grammar?

I think the beat and rhythm could be part of music's grammar and syntax,
but not embouchure and breath support. Grammar and syntax are the
structure of language used to organize it. In other words, to make it
more efficient for our categorizing brains to assimilate the information
being communicated. Embouchure and breath support would be analogous to
the pen/keyboard/etc used to write or the breath used to vibrate the
vocal chords to produce words because they are the means of producing the
sounds that are organized by rhythm and beat. I'm not sure what would be
comparable to intonation. It doesn't seem to fit in this analogy.

> If so, then aren't they
> part of the meta-language that describes the language of 'proper'
clarinet
> playing? And if so, isn't there room for logical error
> when trying to use these same 'symbols' (words) for both levels of the
> hierarchy?
> You could end up with statements such as "This music is ugly"
> that are logically equivalent to "This sentence is a lie."

How can "This music is ugly" be logically equivalent to "This sentence is
a lie"? Statements of beauty are value judgements and because of the
ubiquitous use of ugly the phrase is nebulous and unspecific without
further justification with argument. But even if one argues for such
judgements, they are still emotional in nature and relative to the
judge's life experiences. Webster appears to support my argument that
ugly is a value judgement, in that it uses more subjective words to
define it as a descriptor of something that is aesthetically unpleasant,
vile, or repulsive. I don't think such emotional responses are
approachable with logic.

However, the latter sentence you cite is a statement of fact, that it,
according to webster, is a statement that isn't consistent with reality
and probably made with the intention of deceit. Which of course sets up
contradiction of logic, making it simply a play on the ambiguities that
can be set up by the manipulation of factual language. If such a play
in music is possible, I don't think it would be within the terms of it's
value to people.

My two cents... (in the sense that Tony Pay posted about a few weeks
ago. Hmmm... I wonder if he'd be willing to comment.)

Best,

Jennifer

> They sound
> reasonable until you attempt to deal with the two levels of meaning.
>
> I find this to be an interesting chain of thought about music
> because it can deal with statements that, at first blush, seem to be
> blatant statements of personal preference and yet simultaneously
> appear to have some fundamental relevance to the proper defnition
> of 'good music'.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
> Bill
>
>

GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Unsubscribe from Klarinet, e-mail: klarinet-unsubscribe@-----.org
Subscribe to the Digest: klarinet-digest-subscribe@-----.org
Additional commands: klarinet-help@-----.org
Other problems: klarinet-owner@-----.org