Klarinet Archive - Posting 000674.txt from 2000/12

From: Tony@-----.uk (Tony Pay)
Subj: Re: [kl] Jazz artistic achievement [was, Peplowski continued]
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:33:29 -0500

On Tue, 12 Dec 2000 23:50:35 +0100, chnani@-----.fr said:

> Dear mister Pay,
>
> when you wrote:
>
> > This feeling of myself operating at a lower level of creativity than
> > the jazz performer, however, is somewhat offset for me by the
> > feeling that the end result of the jazz enterprise is not on such a
> > high level of artistic achievement.
>
> I am very surprise that nobody react and I feel a little sad you have
> wrote that.
>
> As matter of fact I am sure (I want :-) you don't think so about "the
> Jazz artistic achievement".
>
> Your contribution is a good analyze of Jazz on lot of points, but I
> just cannot agree with this sentence when I think about Billie
> Holliday and some others great Jazz Musicians. A little further in
> your mail you correct your sentence with a "different level". Be sure
> I want not give a lesson to anybody with this email, but I don't
> understand your discussion about Classical and Jazz musician "EGO".
>
> Why are you asking to you (and us) those questions.

First of all, I thank you very much for writing.

In what I wrote, I had no intention of making jazz less important in an
absolute sense. All I meant to say was that in music I find that the
big structures, in general, are more impressive for me than the perfect
miniatures. So, although I might regret my inability to participate in
jazz -- and I do feel myself lacking the ability to play jazz well -- I
can still play in music that is important, and take part in great
structures that jazz probably could never create.

> Kind of American/Latino language PUZZLE :
>
> For instance do you think it would be possible to perform the
> Coltrane's 'Chasing the train' at Village Vanguard if it was written?

No. But could you imagine that Wagner's Ring could have been created by
improvisation?

> I don't think it's possible to write this spiral of time manipulation
> in a normal process of composing, with this result. And for me, there
> are some artistic acts, even some technical stuffs that cannot be
> achieve so precisely if they were written.

Absolutely. I don't disagree -- and I envy very much those who can take
part in that.

> For instance:
>
> In this piece Coltrane explore the possibilities of his instrument to
> some musicals and technical ideas. He react on them, made lot of 'real
> time" choices and found some new ways to play saxophones. And the
> achievement is perfect because he is JC and that the piece is about
> the "John Coltrane Quest".
>
> And it is what I want to hear when I choice to listen this record.
> It's a Masterpiece.

Yes.

> I know (for instance) that some Ligeti parts of clarinets use some
> similar process (disorder,etc). But the result of the 'Chasing the
> train' Freedom is at really high (human possible) level of Artistic
> Achievement and "Not Only" at a high level of creativity. It reminds
> me Van Gogh or Tal Coat painting. "Idem" for lot of other "Jazz
> Stuff".

I wouldn't want to even compare what Ligeti does in those pieces with
what you're talking about.

> Just another little thing : -Satchmo (for me) wasn't playing on chord
> changes, not even more than Mozart, I am sure that you agree with
> that.

I did say that jazz was *initially* based on chord changes, but also on
other things, and then developed into something else.

> Improvisation is just a way to play music, not only used in Jazz.
> There are no difference of levels (creativity/Achievement) between
> the different ways to play music, different Cultures. Classical music
> is 'just a part' of all the world's musics. I am sure you are care
> about this fact. Even if we hear and play lot of very bad things
> everywhere.

I think that playing music of whatever sort is something to do with
trusting bits of yourself that aren't conscious, whilst managing them,
so that they don't take over entirely.

> It is true that the Jazzmen have sometimes their own very personnel
> sound, rhythmic approach, intonation, etc but it didn't mean that
> the "artistic achievement" is at an lower level than great classical
> musicians.

No, absolutely not. And in many ways the opposite. The best jazz
musicians are certainly equal, and even perhaps at a higher level, if
you want to compare them.

All I wanted to say is that even if *I* am less than John Coltrane, you
could argue that a performance of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, in which I
am an important part, is probably more, and certainly no less, than any
track Coltrane produced with his colleagues.

[snip]

> I think when you will sitting near Parker in another life ... you
> both will be very pleased and forget all this discussion of level in
> creativity or achievement and found quickly something to play
> together.

I think you flatter me. I do have some Parker discs.

> In your playing I feel you 'live the instant beautifully, freely'
> and with an "generous/human/communication aspect". like in the Sonny
> Rollins 'high level of achievement' "A house is not a home" piece.
>
> May I paint on a wall :
>
> ----- Tony Pay is a Fantastic Jazz Musician -------
> ?

Even though I think that's not right, I don't think I've ever had
anything more beautiful said to me. (I'll wake up tomorrow:-)

Tony
--
_________ Tony Pay
|ony:-) 79 Southmoor Rd Tony@-----.uk
| |ay Oxford OX2 6RE GMN family artist: www.gmn.com
tel/fax 01865 553339

... Internet users can do it all over the world...

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