Klarinet Archive - Posting 000171.txt from 2000/12

From: Gavin Rebetzke <GRebetzke@-----.au>
Subj: RE: [kl]war of the Tonys (there, that's better)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 13:51:34 -0500

<Neil wrote: I return to my original position that putting an apostrophe
before the 's'
in "Tony's" was appropriate usage to denote the plural case.>

I don't wish to concede the use of an apostrophe to form a plural in any
circumstance in the English language (as opposed to the American version),
however, Neil, please tell me, where oh where, is the confusion to be
avoided in order to justify the unjustifiable use of an apostrophe in the
plural of "Tony"? "Go Tony's" is no clearer than "Go Tonys". In fact, "war
of the Tony's" is LESS clear and creates more confusion than "war of the
Tonys" since "Tony's" indicates a single possessive Tony. So here is the
riddle presented by the abuse of the apostrophe: does the one "the Tony" own
the war, and if so, which Tony?

Gavin

-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Leupold [mailto:leupold_1@-----.com]
Subject: [kl] I started it...and something more

--- A4ACHESON@-----.com wrote (edited for efficiency):

> I spoke to Ms. Wizbicky [now retired] and she quoted the
> following...

> It "may occasionally be used before a plural 's' as a device for avoiding
> confusion, but this should not be extended beyond what is necessary for
that
> purpose... "

> Fowler's Modern English Usage 2nd Edition Pub. OUP p. 457 and p.467

Now, isn't this interesting? Did everybody catch that? After all this
humming & hawing (and some 3 dozen or more posts on the subject), an un-
expected shadow of doubt is cast (above) upon the certainty we all felt
(following my goofball original post and hasty retraction) about the ap-
propriate use of the apostrophe in the case of plural nouns, proper and
otherwise. Mr. Acheson (sorry, I've forgotten your first name at the mo-
ment) and Roger Garrett were the only persons to actually cite REFERENCES
on the subject, and Mr. Acheson's citation (from Fowler's Modern English,
no less -- God bless you, Ms. Wizbicky), actually opens the door a crack
to the notion that an apostrophe can indeed be used to denote the plural
case. Fowler's cautions against its abuse, but the verbiage "may occa-
sionally be used before a plural 's' as a device for avoiding confusion"
is unambiguous enough to shake the foundations of all the sheer SPECULA-
TION which has characterized the entire discussion thus far.

A pat on the back to you, Roger, simply for going to your bookshelf and
trying to locate some authoritative information on the subject. A hand-
shake to Mr. Acheson for doing the same, and for raising the question anew
in everybody's mind about how concretely proper grammar and syntax really
are (not) defined in the English language. We'll all just have to agree
to disagree on the subject, based on personal style, since the authorities
themselves have not yet arrived at a conclusive answer to the issue. I
return to my original position that putting an apostrophe before the 's'
in "Tony's" was appropriate usage to denote the plural case.

Changing gears a bit, why don't clarinet-related threads get this kind of
lively interest and exchange? Surely issues of technique, musicality, and
pedagogy are more deserving of our collective passion and participation
than our diminutive friend the apostrophe.

-- Neil

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