Klarinet Archive - Posting 000784.txt from 2000/08

From: Tony@-----.uk (Tony Pay)
Subj: Re: [kl] Saving face (was, correcting each other)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 21:30:55 -0400

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:58:19 -0500, rgarrett@-----.edu said:

> At 09:06 PM 08/22/2000 +0100, you wrote:

> > In the culture of science, or academic enquiry -- but above all in
> > the culture of science -- it is the *attempt to save face* that is
> > the thing you have to try to avoid. This is because any attempt to
> > save face inevitably involves covering up the truth to some extent;
> > and what science is above all committed to is the pursuit of truth.
>
> Certainly that is a single point of view. Another point of view is
> that, when one makes a a point that clearly is the winning point, it
> could be viewed as less honorable to continue to tell a person not
> only how you won but why they lost. It is no longer about science
> then, it is about pride. That is what I meant by saving face.

That's an unavoidable effect of considering the matter as one of winning
and losing. If that's the way you happen to be viewing the issue,
you're bound to see it in terms of winning points, saving face, and
pride.

I'd rather see it in terms of establishing a consensus on what the truth
is. The 'winning point' then is just the one that establishes the
consensus, the moment where someone says, OK, yeah, you're right.

That doesn't apply to arguments about things that are merely matters of
opinion, of course.

[snip]

I wrote:

> > ...and why, when I said in my reply to Don that I had the greatest
> > respect for Bill's posts, I was simply stating the truth.
>
> In some political circles in many cultures that is referred to as a
> nice way of rubbing someone's nose in their mistake. There are many
> cultures that do not view that as honorable.

I don't really know what this means. We were just in the process of
reaching a consensus. On this occasion, it was Bill who said, OK; but
on other occasions it has been me.

Mistakes don't *have* to have that nature, you know. They only do if
you say so. In fact, it's quite liberating to realise (again), "Oh, it
wasn't a piece of shit after all! It was just a mistake!"

Tony
--
_________ Tony Pay
|ony:-) 79 Southmoor Rd Tony@-----.uk
| |ay Oxford OX2 6RE GMN family artist: www.gmn.com
tel/fax 01865 553339

... Contentsoftaglinemaysettleduringshipping.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Unsubscribe from Klarinet, e-mail: klarinet-unsubscribe@-----.org
Subscribe to the Digest: klarinet-digest-subscribe@-----.org
Additional commands: klarinet-help@-----.org
Other problems: klarinet-owner@-----.org