Klarinet Archive - Posting 000771.txt from 2000/05

From: George Kidder <gkidder@-----.org>
Subj: Re: [kl] Eb on bell
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:35:49 -0400

Sorry - I wasn't completely clear. I was asking for a comparison between
the standard soprano CLARINET (in A) and the same upper joint fitted with
an extended lower joint, to make a basset CLARINET out of it. Those of you
who have played such an instrument - is there a difference in the sound or
feel of the upper joint (left hand) notes when the lower joint is extended?
Since I know almost nothing about the basset HORN, this was not my question.

At 07:41 AM 05/16/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>Your question is a good one but I think that any answer would ignore the
>fact that there is a major difference between the clarinet and basset
>horn that has not once been explored, including the topic at hand.
>Basset horns (at least contemporary ones) are plateau instruments and
>clarinets (in general) are not.
>
>So what effect do the plateau keys have on the sound character of the
>notes in the left hand and how much of this effect might be attributed
>to closure of pads by the right hand??
>
>In effect, there is an entire parameter that has to be brought into this
>discussion once you begin to compare clarinet and basset horn sound
>characters. Do you agree?
>
>George Kidder wrote:
>>
>> The utility of resonance fingerings, which are always changes in the
>> pattern of open and closed holes BELOW the hole that is the primary vent
>> for a note, says to me that the lower part of the clarinet does in fact
>> influence the sound. Some of these fingerings (e.g., closing the lowest Eb
>> key as part of a resonance fingering for "open" G) are at great distances
>> from the primary vent. So a question for Dan - in your experience, do the
>> upper ("left hand") notes sound or feel any different when played on a
>> standard clarinet then they do with a basset lower joint?
>>
>> At 09:42 AM 05/15/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>> >Well, I have exhausted whatever modest technical knowledge I have on the
>> >whole subject so I can't comment any more than I have. But the
>> >discussion is a good one so I hope that someone better equipped than me
>> >will add some clarity to it.
>> >
>> >Dan
>> >
>> >Roger Shilcock wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Dan,
>> >> If this was absolutely so, then no one would ever bother to open a hole
>> >> further down the instrument with the intention of correcting the
tuning on
>> >> some note. I think you are taking the clarinet to be closer to an ideal
>> >> cylindrical tube than it is. In particular, you are implying that the
>> >> clarinet behaves as if the piece of tube beyond the hole used to
produce a
>> >> given tone has been annihilated, and I doubt whether this is the case. I
>> >> can't quote any acoustics texts on
>> >> this, but probably someone on this list can.
>> >> Yours,
>> >> Roger S.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, 15 May 2000, Daniel Leeson wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 06:43:14 -0700
>> >> > From: Daniel Leeson <leeson0@-----.net>
>> >> > Reply-To: klarinet@-----.org
>> >> > To: klarinet@-----.org
>> >> > Subject: Re: [kl] Eb on bell
>> >> >
>> >> > Roger, I think the answer can be determined empirically. There are a
>> >> > few clarinettists who have two different lower joints for their
>> >> > instruments. One such joint is traditional and permits the instrument
>> >> > to descend to the low E-natural. The other joint makes the instrument
>> >> > into a basset clarinet by virtue of the fact that it permits
descent to
>> >> > low C. Either joint fits on an unaltered upper joint which remains
>> >> > unmodified.
>> >> >
>> >> > In the two such instruments that I have seen, there was no perceptible
>> >> > difference in the placement of any tone holes down to and including
low
>> >> > E, but it is possible that the difference was so slight as to be not
>> >> > noticeable without some sophisticated measurement.
>> >> >
>> >> > However, and it is a very BIG however, there is clearly no
difference at
>> >> > all in the tone hole spacing for the upper joint. Yet your suggestion
>> >> > is that adding a low E-flat to a clarinet might require a
relocation of
>> >> > ALL tone holes, something with which I am not in agreement.
>> >> >
>> >> > To do as you suggest appears to me to violate physics. A note is at a
>> >> > certain pitch because of the length of the vibrating air column.
>> >> > Changing that length for all notes (which is synonymous with what you
>> >> > say) is going to change the pitch of every note. It is not a
matter of
>> >> > proportion but of absolute length.
>> >> >
>> >> > Roger Shilcock wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Dan L.,
>> >> > > Surely an instrument built to low E flat and one built to low E
should
>> >> > > have
>> >> > > all their holes in slightly different places?
>> >> > > Roger S.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > On Sat, 13 May 2000, Daniel Leeson wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:31:06 -0700
>> >> > > > From: Daniel Leeson <leeson0@-----.net>
>> >> > > > Reply-To: klarinet@-----.org
>> >> > > > To: klarinet@-----.org
>> >> > > > Subject: Re: [kl] Eb on bell
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > The lowest tone of a clarinet is created by having the air column
>> exit
>> >> > > > the instrument out of the bell. Thus, on a standard clarinet,
>> fingering
>> >> > > > low e creates the lowest tone by virtue of the fact that
>> depressing the
>> >> > > > e key closes the lowest hole on the instrument and the air column
>> that
>> >> > > > is created is the longest.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > To get a low E-flat, the instrument must be longer and you need an
>> extra
>> >> > > > hole somewhere below the hole that is closed when low e is
>> fingered. On
>> >> > > > a soprano clarinet that plays a low e-flat, that extra hole (and
>> pad to
>> >> > > > close it so that the air goes out the bell) is on the body of the
>> >> > > > instrument which has been made longer to accomodate the hole.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > On some bass clarinets, that extra length is accomplished by
>> putting the
>> >> > > > e-flat hole (and pad to close it) on the bell. On a bass clarinet
>> that
>> >> > > > extends to low c, the holes for e, e-flat, d, and d-flat are on
>> the body
>> >> > > > of the instrument and the hole which when closed gives the lowest
>> tone
>> >> > > > or low c is on the bell.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > In the case of the instrument you speak of, the manufacturer
had two
>> >> > > > choices. Extend the wood long enough to put the hole for the
>> e-flat on
>> >> > > > the body of the horn or else to put it on the bell. It makes
better
>> >> > > > financcial sense to put it on the bell because that way he uses
>> the same
>> >> > > > body for a bass clarinet that goes down to low e as for one
that goes
>> >> > > > down to low e-flat; i.e., its a little more keywork and a
>> different bell
>> >> > > > rather than a different body.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > William Wright wrote:
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Several auctions have described a bass clarinet as having
>> "Eb on
>> >> > > > > the bell". I assume this means that the keywork extends to the
>> bell
>> >> > > > > with a bridge of some sort. Are all bass clarinets built
this way?
>> >> > > > > And a related question: does a bass clarinet change into
>> some other
>> >> > > > > standard instrument if you replace the neck with a simple barrel
>> and the
>> >> > > > > curved bell with an 'ordinary' bell.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Thank you,
>> >> > > > > Bill
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >> > > > --
>> >> > > > ***************************
>> >> > > > ** Dan Leeson **
>> >> > > > ** leeson0@-----.net **
>> >> > > > ***************************
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
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>> >> > >
>> >> > >
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>> >> > --
>> >> > ***************************
>> >> > ** Dan Leeson **
>> >> > ** leeson0@-----.net **
>> >> > ***************************
>> >> >
>> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >> >
>> >>
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>> >
>> >--
>> >***************************
>> >** Dan Leeson **
>> >** leeson0@-----.net **
>> >***************************
>> >
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>> >
>> -----------------------
>> George Kidder
>> MDIBL
>> gkidder@-----.org
>>
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>
>--
>***************************
>** Dan Leeson **
>** leeson0@-----.net **
>***************************
>
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-----------------------
George Kidder
MDIBL
gkidder@-----.org

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