Klarinet Archive - Posting 000151.txt from 1999/12

From: "Fernando1" <fernando1@-----.br>
Subj: Re: [kl] Maybe not so OT
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:35:35 -0500

Dear Karl, when I have been studing all the stuff about reeds to make my
dissertation, I had(and have) in my hands another dissertation, in
Production Engeneering(spell?), that he, Leonardo Fuks(Professor at Rio de
Janeiro Federal University) made a lot of experiments with one Artificial
blower(?). To mesure the diference, in quality, in the same box, without an
human felling, he build up that kind of machine.
Maybe that way could be good to test the reeds wet in water and saliva with
one more..... scientific view.

All the best

Fernando
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Fernando Silveira
Clarinet Professor - Rio de Janeiro University - Brazil
Rio de Janeiro Municipal Theater Symphony Orchestra
Selmer/Vandoren Artist
fersilv@-----.br
-----Mensagem original-----
De: Karl Krelove <kkrelove@-----.com>
Para: klarinet@-----.org>
Data: Domingo, 5 de Dezembro de 1999 19:10
Assunto: RE: [kl] Maybe not so OT

>Since I think I'm responsible for the current incarnation of this thread,
>let me jump in for a minute and try to refocus, for my own benefit, on my
>original question. We've revisited saliva vs. tap water and gotten into
>microbiology, which may well have a central part to play in the eventual
>decay/destruction of a reed. Malia's original post had to do with _rapid_
>deterioration of a reed's vibrating properties (over a few days). My
>observation was that the cane had not necessarily "died" (i.e. been
degraded
>to a point of uselessness) but had merely had changes take place in its
>physical dimensions (and perhaps its density if solids were precipitating
>out of the evaporating liquid when the reeds dried). I also said that most
>reeds that started out vibrating well could be reclaimed at this stage by
>adjustments that, in effect, restore physical dimensions that may have been
>compromised over the first few uses. In other words, in my experience,
reeds
>at this stage have not been destroyed, as most of the microbiological
>explanations seem to suggest is happening by virtue of enzyme or bacterial
>activity, but are still quite viable and have relatively long (in terms of
>weeks) lives ahead of them.
>
>I'm postulating a simpler, less biological explanation for the very rapid
>and generally reversible "break-in" effect. What I am most curious about is
>how, if I were, for example, to approach one of our science teachers at
>school for help, any physical changes in the reed could be observed and
>measured. As a start, how would I (with help) compare reeds soaked,
perhaps,
>in distilled water (which should be pH 7.0 and have no suspended minerals
to
>precipitate out) with reeds soaked in saliva and those soaked in tap water?
>Obviously, adding a play-test stage would confound the results because I'd
>be introducing saliva into all the samples during the play-test, so my
first
>observations would be (if I knew how to make them) simply looking for
>changes in the wood structure or dimensions from just the soaking. Is this
>basic microscopy (what do I see that looks different?), or are there more
>sophisticated ways of doing this? I emphasize that I'm not really thinking
>about the longer process that eventually does (or seems to) irretrievably
>destroy cane reeds. I guess basic to this is the question of whether or not
>both phenomena ("break-in" and eventual "break-down") are really stages of
>the same continual process or have different causes.
>
>Enough noise from me. I'll settle back now and read whatever comes in.
>
>Karl Krelove
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: W. Edinger [mailto:wde1@-----.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 1999 2:42 PM
>> To: Klarinet list
>> Subject: [kl] almost totally OT
>>
>>
>> Some comments on cellulose digestion - humans, porcupines, any
>> animal (including termites, believe it or not), are completely incapable
>> of digesting cellulose, so that's not what's happening when reeds break
>> down. Technically, even termites don't have the capability of digesting
>> it - it's actually the bacteria in their guts that make the enzymes
>> (cellulases) that can do it (this may seem like a minor technicality to
>> most people, but of major significance to a microbiologist :-)). But I
>> do agree that there is most likely some enzymatic activity contributing
>> to the aging of reeds. I'd bet that the mechanical action of vibration
>> does more than anything, though, and based to a large extent on the
>> original density/cell morphology of the cane, which perhaps explains why
>> some go faster than others. Cleaning them with hydrogen peroxide sure
>> makes sense to me, but as we all know, they'll still wear out
>> eventually. Also, as Fernando pointed out, the acids, bases, and
>> enzymes in saliva are pretty dilute; and the ionic strength of tap water
>> is so low, and thus the buffering capacity so low, that minor changes in
>> acid/base content reflect changes in pH that seem more significant than
>> they really are. Finally, most pH meters will read tap water - yes,
>> even certifiable pH 7.0 tap water - at around 5.4-5.7 due to a fluke in
>> the way the electrodes work. If you didn't do a major or minor in
>> biochemistry though, don't blame yourself. Just use pH papers to get a
>> more accurate reading for tap water.
>>
>> Bill E.
>>
>> Did you know that OT also stands for Occupational Therapy? Just ask my
>> wife. ;-)
>>
>> --
>> ****************************
>> "Music and wine are one."
>>
>> - Ralph W. Emerson
>>
>>
>>
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