Klarinet Archive - Posting 000825.txt from 1999/09

From: Roger Shilcock <roger.shilcock@-----.uk>
Subj: Re: [kl] Non-swinging crocodiles
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 23:19:07 -0400

Tony P.,
Your pome may not be useful for some non-native speakers of English.
English, like Russian, say, and unlike Polish, is a so-called
"stress-timed" language. The syllable reductions wouldn't occur in some
languages. I'm NOT going to indulge in any speculation about relationships
between spoken language rhythms and musical rhythms, vis-a-vis
"national" schools of music, folk music styles, .....
Yours,
Roger S.

On Fri, 24 Sep 1999, Tony Pay wrote:

> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:38:42 +0100
> From: Tony Pay <Tony@-----.uk>
> Reply-To: klarinet@-----.org
> To: klarinet@-----.org
> Subject: [kl] Non-swinging crocodiles
>
> On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 21:51:59 -0400, reedman@-----.com said:
>
> > Tony had some great comments on Copland, on the "to swing or not".
> > The swing I wrote about is a very light nuance, not the 66 2/3 33 1/3
> > swing in traditional "swing". This swing is more like 52 - 48%.
> > Compared to say Mozart - it's swing. Compared to standard swing jazz
> > it is not. Listen to Shifrin's recording - that is how, and what I
> > wrote of, and is the same as Michele Z. , and Roger S. spoke about -
> > and it was not in a lesson situation, it was friends discussing
> > interpretation for the 1993 Belguim ICA competition - I was coaching
> > one of the Finalists, and they were the ones who brought up that area.
>
> Having thought about this a bit more, I'm now prepared to argue that
> swing is not the best way of thinking of the beginning of passage Q
> even within the jazz context. So quite apart from what I said before,
> there are other reasons why Goodman wouldn't necessarily have wanted to
> swing passage Q.
>
> Consider for a moment: what is the point of swing? Why does it arise?
>
> Swing is a background patterning (a stylistic element, in the language
> I used previously). Like the hierarchical structure of the bar, it
> exists to establish a sufficiently rich environment for the perception
> of subtle changes.
>
> (Leonard Bernstein gave the shortest example of the establishment and
> subsequent disruption of patterning when he talked about the "...ready,.
> ..steady,...Go!" principle in music.)
>
> Anyhow, what swing does is to call attention to, and emphasise by
> prolonging slightly, the first of each pair of notes in a sequence of
> such pairs, and suppress the second of each pair by a corresponding
> shortening. Subtle modulation of the emphasis, and even contradiction
> of the emphasis, is then possible. The baroque 'inegal' technique does
> the same sort of thing.
>
> The beginning of passage Q, however, doesn't contain a sequence of note
> pairs. It contains three notes, of which group we want to emphasise the
> beginning, as a counterpoise to the offbeat bass.
>
> I would say, contra the playing of many of my colleagues, but in
> conformity with several powerful traditions of which the Viennese is not
> the least, that when we have groups of three (or more) notes, and have
> to emphasise the beginnings of those groups, we do best to make the
> first note *shorter*, and pile in the second note earlier than usual.
>
> Consider how the Viennese waltz works. The first and second beats are
> closer together, using the energy generated by faster change. If you do
> it the other way around, this 'faster change' energy has to occur
> between the second and third beats -- and this has the effect of working
> against the beginning emphasised patterning you want to achieve.
>
> This realisation can considerably help the performance of, for example,
> the third movement of the Brahms Clarinet trio. As an experiment, try
> the result of playing ever so slightly faster, rather than slower, at
> the beginning of the bars; or at the beginnings of the phrases, when
> these are longer than a bar. (This also gives 'relaxation space'
> towards the end of the bar or phrase.)
>
> Language example:
>
> Crocodiles mostly fornicate slowly.
>
> If you say the preceding sentence, not too fast, imagining that the
> beginnings of the words show a regular steady pulse, I think you will
> detect that it's natural to speed up the beginnings of the
> three-syllable words and slow down the beginnings of the two-syllable
> words.
>
> Then passage Q becomes, say:
>
> Crocodile A
> And crocodile B
> Were chattering
> Lazily
> Under a tree.
>
> etc.
>
> And by playing with the colours of the syllables in the faster 'Croco-'
> bit, you can achieve the relaxed feel in a way that is much more natural
> -- to me, at any rate.
>
> I don't deny that you *could* do it the other way -- try saying it to
> yourself both ways -- but I think that to do so naturally requires a
> quite high degree of swing, rather than the gentle one David is talking
> about.
>
> (I can't quite find the joke about there 'not being enough room to swing
> a crocodile'. It's in there somewhere.)
>
> Anyone want to try completing and/or modifying the poem?-)
>
> Tony
> --
> _________ Tony Pay
> |ony:-) 79 Southmoor Rd Tony@-----.uk
> | |ay Oxford OX2 6RE GMN family artist: www.gmn.com
> tel/fax 01865 553339
>
>
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