Klarinet Archive - Posting 000294.txt from 1999/08

From: Jean.Conti@-----.com
Subj: RE: [kl] Dear Roger,
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:27:52 -0400

I just wonder, how many people will read this salad ????

Could you use your private mail address.=20
Thanks in advance

Jean Conti

SWISSCOM Ltd
Major Accounts Consulting & Design
49, rte Meyrin
CH-1211 GENEVE 2 (Switzerland)

Tel: +41 22 797 9716 Fax: +41 22 797 9179
Mobile: +41 79 236 1208 Email: jean.conti@-----.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Garrett [mailto:rgarrett@-----.edu]
Subject: Re: [kl] Dear Roger,

On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 reedman@-----.com wrote:
> I am really surprised by the vituperative nature of your many posts =
on the

> recent thread and response to my comments.

Clark,

Your comments are and were designed to slam me as a person. I have =
never
attacked you, yet you feel comfortable saying Roger Garrett knows =
nothing
about what he is saying.

I have frequently stated my opinion based on my experiences - and you =
are
free to disagree. But your approach is not to disagree, it is to =
disagree
and defame/libel me at the same time. There is a difference. Here is =
an
example of what you could have said:

Roger Garrett has stated........XXXYYYZZZZ.........and I disagree for =
the
following reasons. My experience has been.......XXXYYYZZZ.......

Lose the "Roger Garrett doesn't know anything" approach and you would =
have
been fine. But you didn't, and that is it.

> I have NEVER denigrated or even commented about your playing. I don't =
know

> why you would throw in such a spurious and unrelated remark.=20

You insinuate such when you claim I know nothing. It was done with the
idea of raising yourself above the level of others. 14 years, $1000s =
of
dollars, and a bunch of tools don't make you the world's greatest
expert. Up until your post in which I was angered, I continued to =
believe
you might just be trying to disagree regarding plastics. However, you
have an adgenda - to sell mouthpieces - and when you do that by =
slamming
me - you did the wrong thing. So you can say, "I don't know why you =
would
thrown in such a spurious and unrelated remark," with the innocent =
little
halo - and I take it for exactly that. You have insinuated in several
posts regarding my mouthpiece work that:

1. They are not consistant (because I don't have your tools and
experience)
2. They are just refaces - not REAL mouthpieces
3. Cost is justified and I entered into a taboo discussion
4. I lied to you by telling you I had no intention of making
mouthhpieces commercially (which was absolutely true at the time).

My position is that an average clarinetist/musician can't make good
mouthpieces. Your posts imply that, since my mouthpieces aren't your
standard, I must not be a good musician/player. Now you can see the
connection.

You don't exactly warm my heart with comments such as - "I know from =
the
beginning that it is fruitless to get into any kind of
argument with Roger....." Kind of sets up a situation that strongly
implies I don't listen to reason or discuss - that I always have to win =
an
argument. You then go on to state several things that put me down - in
very specific and unprofessional ways. Your halo fell off from the =
very
first sentence, so don't give me the innocent act Clark!

> If you open up=20
> a discussion about mouthpiece quality and pricing that puts =
mouthpiece=20
> makers on the defensive you will of course encounter some argument.

You don't argue, you defame especially when you feel threatened
commercially by information that you don't agree with. You didn't have =
to
say things the way you did - but it was done with the purpose of
saying.....he is treading in my area of expertise and I will make it =
clear
to others that he knows nothing. You did a very nice job of that.

> You seem=20
> to think that you are the only person on this list with a right to an =

> opinion and if someone has a counter opinion they are trying to =
obfuscate=20
> or avoid the issue

There you go - that says it all doesn't it? And you think that your =
posts
don't do the same???? =20

I only post in areas which I feel strongly or feel I have a very strong
position (expert). The mouthpiece area is the former, the marching
band/music education/clarinet teaching is the latter. Frankly, many of
the people who argue on the list are not knowledgeable about music
education or playing. When Mark Charette makes claims - he looks like =
an
idiot - why? Because he has no experience in clarinet playing or =
teaching
that lends credibility to his statements. And why do you put up with =
it?
Because he endorses your product. I don't operate that way - for =
better
or worse. So - don't hang out with me and play golf or boating with me =
-
but put me down in a public forum for an opinion and watch out.

> I think that your comments that I never offer any material =
information=20
> about mouthpieces are pretty far off the mark. My contributions to =
this=20
> list in the area of technical information have been generous and are =
well=20
> documented in the archives. .=20

Didn't say material information. In fact, I said you DO provide =
material
information. Reread it with more comprehension Clark. I said you =
don't
provide specifics regarding your opinions - very shadowed, implied
messages.

> I thank you for your very nice comments about my mouthpieces, but on =
the=20
> other hand I am dissappointed that you choose to see my arguments as=20
> personal attacks.=20

I'm sorry you don't understand that you personally attacked me. =20

> I have been in the music business for 24 years.=20

Well who cares???? I've been in it for only 18, my dad for 34 before
that. I grew up in the music business Clark, so take your resume and =
use
it for kitty litter as far as I'm concerned. The only things I care =
about
with regard to you are:

1. That you treat me with more courtesty that you did - especially
since I didn't treat you with a lack of courtesy and I have
recommended your mouthpiece frequently.
2. That you recognize opinions are there and, if you disagree, to do
so in a way that doesn't directly say - "so and so doesn't know what
they
are talking about."
3. That your good work with clarinets and mouthpieces is not
overshadowed by an insatiable desire to sell at any cost.

So far, number three is doing ok. Numbers 1 and 2 need an overhaul.

> Your perspective as a novice and part time, albeit perhaps=20
> excellent, mouthpiece maker is different than mine. If you were to =
move to

> a point where your livelihood depended on making mouthpieces I think =
that=20
> you may have a broader view on mouthpiece pricing.

Thanks Clark. Your a novice too. Talk to me when you hit 20 years and
then you can be a non-novice. As for me, I don't go around advertising
and stating that my mouthpieces are the greatest. I simply provide =
them
if people want. You chose your life, don't use it as a wedge to argue =
why
you know more than everyone else. My parents have been marketing =
products
for 30 years - of which I have been closely involved. I'm not a novice =
as
much as you think I am - but it is that attitude which has caused the
problems.

> Most makers set prices based on a formula=20
> that does allow a reasonable profit for himself and allows a =
comfortable=20
> retail markup within which a retailer can make a profit on his =
investment.
> If Mr. Weinstein's idea of vertical marketing is that each step up =
product

> is priced as an integral graduate, then he is not taking into
consideration=20
> the variables of cost and time required to make the different =
products.

I openly stated you sell for what you are worth. I don't know why you =
are
explaining the above to me.

> I did not set $50 as the "magical" price point, Roger did.=20

Sarcasm aside, it was an EXAMPLE - a ficticious one designed to =
illustrate
a concept. You took it beyond the intent - quite sarcastically and in =
a
very demeaning, unprofessional way. The math was accurate, and I know
what gross profit is made when you sell a mouthpiece for $50 to a =
retailer
when it only costs $17.95. You say, the base price is way off - yay. =
Try
telling us what the base price is then. It won't hurt your business - =
but
perhaps you think others will think you are gouging them? Easier just =
to
tell everyone that I'm way off. Educate - don't complain.

> It is also=20
> untrue that artists are "forced" to make plastic mouthpieces. I chose =
that

> path, because i saw that there was a great need in that area. I am=20
> extremely proud of my products and make no apologies. Every =
mouthpiece
that=20
> bears my name has been made with thoughtfulness toward quality.=20

Fine. I guess I'm not allowed to state on the list, because it might =
hurt
your feelings (or your sales) that I don't recommend plastic =
mouthpieces
to my students. It's true! I have your plastic which you graciously =
sent
me, and I have students try it - especially those who will be going out =
to
teach in the public schools. They have it on a list of affordable, =
good
quality mouthpieces to ask their retailers to include in the stores or =
the
cases - but my private students don't use plastics. Period. I =
disagree
about the quality - especially because I can make a hard rubber =
mouthpiece
for my students that are better than the plastic you provided. Does =
this
mean that I think I am better? No....it means that the blank I start =
with
is better in terms of quality and the facing is put on correctly. Do =
they
all turn out better - nope - I don't have your tools or bore equipment =
or
knowledge in that area. Have I claimed to be able to - nope - but you
seem to think that I think that. I have yet to make even one =
mouthpiece
that plays better than the Pyne I have played on for several years. =
Why?
He does something I can't figure out - as well as uses a blank I can't
locate. I respect that. Do I strive to make one better - sure. Do I
tell others I can - nope. I recommend Pynes to my private students and
allow them to try the three I have - and recommend they visit him for =
one
for themselves. Do I like Jim Pyne? I don't know him very well, but =
he
doesn't treat people such as myself and non-former students who have no
influence in the clarinet political status very well compared to the =
Bob
Springs and other president/former presidents of ICA. I don't care =
about
the politics - and that is what I am seeing on the list.

> I still agree that rubber is a better material for making clarinet=20
> mouthpieces. But the point that I keep coming back too is that one =
cannot=20
> make as consistent a product with rubber AND keep the price point low =

> enough to be affordable to a broad student market.=20

You never said that directly - go back and read your own post. You
implied it - but you and I and others who understand (or somewhat
understand) the business better than the average Joe end-user will see
your point more clearly than others. You also don't get into specifics =
of
why it is not affordable and how a broad student market impacts on your
mouthpiece making. You just state that I don't know anything as an
argument.

> Thousands of children=20
> start the clarinet and drop it within in one year. Should they be =
"forced"

> to pay for a rubber mouthpiece when an excellent product in plastic =
is=20
> available at half the price and will suit their needs beautifully?=20

Why do you think I got involved in mouthpieces to begin with Clark??? =
I'm
certainly not in it for the money. I sell a hard rubber mouthpiece for
very low prices - and they don't leave my office unless I like them or
think they will play well for someone. I have 20 or 30 of them lying
around that I give away to students because they are not good enough to
put on the market. My entire reason for beginning this whole thing =
while
on sabbatical was out of frustration for sending my students out to pay
$80 for areasonable hard rubber mouthpiece. They came in with edgy, =
ugly
Hites (plastic and hard rubber) - and the local band director pushes =
Hite
because he found one out of 50 that played well. To replace that, I =
had
no recourse but to send them to a mouthpiece maker I could trust (Bob
Scott) - but even those were inconsistant and not always worth the $80.
So.......I learned to do it myself. I don't do it as consistantly as =
you,
nor do I have a desire to get into it as you have. But that doesn't =
mean
I don't understand the kind of skill needed and the marketing end - and
that is where you attack me. If I sell enough mouthpieces to get my =
'41
Chevy repainted - great. My goal is to put good hard rubber mouthpieces
into students hands at an affordable price.

> Granted,=20
> there are extremely bad plastic mouthpieces out there - probably =
millions.

> Poor manufacture of plastic mouthpieces in the past and currently is =
more=20
> the cause for maligning plastic than the material itself.

This was never my point. I don't like the plastic mouthpiece you sent =
me
for my students - it is edgier and doesn't hold the resonance as well =
as
mouthpieces that are made from hard rubber that I like and are not much
more. Period. The plastic you sent me is good for the kid who starts
clarinet in the band and has no private teacher. Great - I support =
that.
As soon as they hit 2nd or 3rd year with me - bamm! the plastic is =
gone.
Even they can hear the difference by then. It is a step up mouthpiece.

> Plastic (acrylic) works wonderfully for me on an acoustical and =
economic=20
> level and provides an extremely consistent product. If one prefers =
his=20
> students to start on more expensive rubber mouthpieces that is his=20
> perogative and there is a huge range from which to choose.

That is the path you take - and you have every right to follow that =
path.
Now - see it from my viewpoint. I teach for a living. If a student =
comes
to me and is unhappy with his sound, his embouchure and air use are =
good,
the reed is good, and the horn is good, and he is playing a Fobes =
plastic
- I'll move him off in a heartbeat if it will help. Hell, I've moved =
them
off my own when it doesn't work. I have students playing on refaced =
5RV's
who sound so good they don't need another mouthpiece. If a parent asks =
me
what mouthpiece to buy and they don't want to spend a lot - I don't
recommend a plastic - I recommend the best, most economical hard =
rubber.
Period. That you don't like that position is your right - that you =
attack
me for holding that position is your right - but don't expect me to lie
down and say, "Gosh, Clark has 14 years experience, X years in the =
music
business, and he knows so much......." I'm more likely to say, this =
guy
has an adgenda to sell plastic mouthpieces and is mad because I don't
endorse them.

I've never tried your hard rubber mouthpiece - never seen one in stock =
at
a store before - including Lisa's shop - but I'm sure they're very =
good.
If it is as good as your bass clarinet mouthpiece (which I still have =
and
like) it is bound to be great. However, based on the bass mouthpiece,=20
when I asked you for an example of your work, you sent a plastic - =
which I
don't recommend for reasons I stated. I would have preferred you sent =
a
great example of your hard rubber so that students could try it and I
could support your business in that way. It was your choice to send
plastic as an example of your Bb mouthpieces. Send me your address, =
and
I'll mail it back to you. But enough arguing about this stuff. We =
have
our positions and you have stated your's clearly. I hope I have stated
mine.
____
___
Roger Garrett
Professor of Clarinet
Director - Concert Band, Symphonic Winds & Titan Band
Advisor - Recording Studio
Illinois Wesleyan University

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